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-   -   200/700 Jumpseat W&B issues? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/skywest/118190-200-700-jumpseat-w-b-issues.html)

DarkSideMoon 11-24-2018 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metx192 (Post 2713260)
The problem is that adding ballast often pushes you over max landing weight on the CRJ-200, which is 47,000 lbs. With an alternate and no JS, you frequently are planned to land pretty close to that limitation already. The weight of a jumpseater + 400lbs of ballast can easily put you over that number. Winter weights for 50 pax add an extra 250lbs. Some of our -200s have a high forward moment even when empty. Some of them aren’t so bad. I’m sorry you’ve had difficulty getting to work. I think most of our captains would do everything they can within reason to get you on the junpseat. Sometimes it will work if we burn off some fuel. Sometimes it is truly impossible if you have a distant alternate and a particularly nose-heavy -200.

Couldn’t they
-burn more fuel?
-find a closer alternate?
-toss crew bags into the tail? (I’ve thrown a green tag on my lunch box before).
-use female weights for the FA (if applicable)
-get rid of an alternate if it isn’t legally required?

I don’t commute, but most of the horror stories I hear from my coworkers are from SKW. It seems like a lot of the time people just aren’t willing to try to make it work. I understand there are times when it truly can’t work but I have a hard time believing that happens as frequently as it seems. There are guys at my airline who have been flying the -200 for 15 years and never had to leave a JS.

zondaracer 11-24-2018 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon (Post 2713310)
Couldn’t they
-burn more fuel?

Sometimes. I’ve had to do this a few times.
Quote:

-find a closer alternate?
Sometimes you can, sometimes you can’t.
Quote:

-toss crew bags into the tail? (I’ve thrown a green tag on my lunch box before).
This won’t do anything except reduce the amount of ballast that you need. This won’t reduce the cabin weight as the crew bags are already included in the bow.
Quote:

-use female weights for the FA (if applicable)
Also not a possibility in the SkyWest CRJ w/b program.
Quote:

-get rid of an alternate if it isn’t legally required?
Yes, it’s a possibility.

So far, I have never had to leave a jumpseater behind except in extreme cases (for example weight restricted and bumped 20 passengers, and take 0 cargo).

squall line 11-24-2018 02:39 PM

So what I’m picking up on it’s the Skywest weight and balance program and not necessarily the plane? Any other -200 carrier do this? I bumped up on the max landing weight issue a number of times, but never needed ballast. Never!

word302 11-24-2018 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squall line (Post 2713408)
So what I’m picking up on it’s the Skywest weight and balance program and not necessarily the plane? Any other -200 carrier do this? I bumped up on the max landing weight issue a number of times, but never needed ballast. Never!

Most operators of the 200 have added a 100 pound plate to the tail cone that all but eliminates this issue. Skywest has not.

squall line 11-24-2018 03:16 PM

Hmm ok I get it. Thanks word

rickair7777 11-24-2018 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon (Post 2713310)
Couldn’t they
-burn more fuel?
-find a closer alternate?
-toss crew bags into the tail? (I’ve thrown a green tag on my lunch box before).
-use female weights for the FA (if applicable)
-get rid of an alternate if it isn’t legally required?

I don’t commute, but most of the horror stories I hear from my coworkers are from SKW. It seems like a lot of the time people just aren’t willing to try to make it work. I understand there are times when it truly can’t work but I have a hard time believing that happens as frequently as it seems. There are guys at my airline who have been flying the -200 for 15 years and never had to leave a JS.

This is frustrating as hell. I jumped through my own hoop on numerous occasions to get JSers on the deuce but at SKW sometimes (often at some outstations at certain times of the year) it simply cannot be done.

There's no installed tail ballast.

In the old days, with paper manifests, you had the width of a pencil lead to work with.

But with ACARS you simply cannot manipulate numbers that don't work.

BTW, if you really want to blame someone, rather than OO pilots who are almost certainly trying their best to get you on, blame Jonathon Ornstien. Mesa went cheap on MX, and grossly overloaded a 1900 back in 2003... the resulting smoking hole caused the FAA to change pax weights by a large margin. Many commuter planes were designed based on the old weights, so suddenly they were all weight limited and out of CG. One type I flew went from being a 30 seat plane to a 28 seat plane overnight.

KSCessnaDriver 11-25-2018 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squall line (Post 2713408)
So what I’m picking up on it’s the Skywest weight and balance program and not necessarily the plane? Any other -200 carrier do this? I bumped up on the max landing weight issue a number of times, but never needed ballast. Never!

Where I fly the 200 we need ballast on occasion with a JS and a light load of cargo, but nowhere near the extent that OO does to get a JS on. The 2 coffee makers and the galley configuration are different than where I work.

KSCessnaDriver 11-25-2018 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2713460)
This is frustrating as hell. I jumped through my own hoop on numerous occasions to get JSers on the deuce but at SKW sometimes (often at some outstations at certain times of the year) it simply cannot be done.

There's no installed tail ballast.

In the old days, with paper manifests, you had the width of a pencil lead to work with.

But with ACARS you simply cannot manipulate numbers that don't work.

BTW, if you really want to blame someone, rather than OO pilots who are almost certainly trying their best to get you on, blame Jonathon Ornstien. Mesa went cheap on MX, and grossly overloaded a 1900 back in 2003... the resulting smoking hole caused the FAA to change pax weights by a large margin. Many commuter planes were designed based on the old weights, so suddenly they were all weight limited and out of CG. One type I flew went from being a 30 seat plane to a 28 seat plane overnight.

APC White Knight defender of OO to the rescue. If this was an industry wide 200 issue, I'd agree. The facts are, the OO CR2 jumpseat is less useful than any other 200 operator, and that's where the issue is.

PerfInit 11-25-2018 07:11 AM

Last time I did an observation in the deuce, the crew had to request adding 400# of ballast to make it work. It was full in the back, and VFR wx both locations, 1.5 hr flight.

word302 11-25-2018 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSCessnaDriver (Post 2713606)
APC White Knight defender of OO to the rescue. If this was an industry wide 200 issue, I'd agree. The facts are, the OO CR2 jumpseat is less useful than any other 200 operator, and that's where the issue is.

We have more of them than anyone else. Your blanket statements are just simply your own very narrow experience. Again most operators have installed a plate in the tail cone, we have not.


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