Does SKW honor seniority like a union shop?
 

Have the proverbial "neighbor's kid" launching to EKU next year. We were talking about OO and the union(or lack there of) subject inevitably came up. So, what's the scoop? Do they honor things such as upgrade times etc. (nearly) the same as the union carriers?
Honest question as i have little knowledge of the happenings at SKW.
Thanks.

TRIGGERED.

Let me get my popcorn

Day-to-day operations function exactly like a union shop.

They have a contract with the pilot group, and a representative body which serves a function similar to a union. All airlines are subject to the RLA (railway labor act) union or not.

The difference is that the pilot group has less leverage, since the contract is harder to enforce for minor violations. But in the regional world market forces play a larger role than any sort of labor organization, so there's no real difference between skywest and other regionals. Historically about 1/3 of skywest pilots came from other (union) regionals in search of greener pastures. There's a limit to what unions can do in the regional world, since they are outsourced subcontractors.

IMO it would be nice is they had a union, but I certainly would not make that a priority. Geography, upgrade opportunity, and QOL would be far more important.

^^^ agree with the above.

However, there is one major violation of seniority and that is when it comes to new equipment in an existing base.

As SLC and PDX got the 175 existing CRJ pilots were bypassed for transition in order to protect the operation. In some cases they flew the CRJ (or Bro) to the last day and didn’t have a spot on the new equipment - and got displaced.

“That’s how we have always done it”

TFAYD

Most airlines have provisions to lock pilots into a fleet that's phasing out. It's really a safety thing, you'd have a continuous parade of noobs and displaced junior pilots being forced onto a sinking ship and then bailing as soon as they could get out. Everyone would be green-on-green. Fleet lock typically includes pay protection, and then you have bumping rights at the end. I could see OO trying to wiggle out of that though.

Does SKW honor seniority like a union shop?
 

Many years ago, I was taking to a Skywest pilot who was complaining that her upgrade award was not being honored because her command ability was being questioned. She didn’t get the chance to go to training and told to wait a year. I have no idea what she did to pis someone off but she did say she had precious command experience in the navy, yet that didn’t make a difference. I don’t know how that would be grieved at a non-union place. Not that it would matter since the final decision rests on management and not a neutral arbitrator. THAT makes a huge difference in union versus non union. Hopefully, that was so long ago, that that practice has changed or it was an isolated incident.

Upgrade happens based on seniority. Weather not you make it through upgrade is another question. Those that don’t it’s VERY apparent they weren’t ready...

I call BS. She probably went to training and then sent back to the right seat. She probably didn't want to tell you that. And many years ago it was up or out...

I've known several guys that were sent back to the right seat.. and then later upgraded after working on some things.

SLC CRJ FOs have been bypassed on transitioning to the right seat of the ERJ in SLC. It's definitely been a violation of seniority. New hires last year were saying they'd only come to work at SkyWest if they could get the ERJ. The company gave those training slots to the guys off the street so they wouldn't go work somewhere else.

The new pay package has attracted a bunch of pilots and the company is now letting some of the FOs transition. Most of them have 8+ years seniority.

Our PBS system disregards seniority every month.

They did get pay protected... ^this also happens at the Majors... get use to it...

Pay protected doesn't mean anything when they pay the same. When you can go from bidding 30% to 2-3% makes a big difference.

It sure does. Not arguing that. Just frustrating to see people get all bent over it. When it happens everywhere...

What AMCND said.

It happened rarely, but when it did it was for VERY good reason and never to my knowledge for any reason but safety.

No it doesn't. Delta didn't tell their SLC pilots they couldn't bid the A220.

Never said that was a absolute for every airline every bid. But yes. It does happen at the Majors... And no one told SLC CRJ FO’s they couldn’t bid the ERJ....

The difference is that you are not only pay protected at the majors. You are guaranteed the seat / domicile / aircraft If you can hold it.

If training takes too long you get positive space to and from base as necessary.

They cancel tour bid - now you can bid into any category / base you can hold - no seat lock.

Not so much here. Tell me how that all worked out for the PDX CRJ guys ?

SKYW is a great company - but the way they treat seniority in transitions is a complete and unacceptable $!it show.

And to quote RJ: “that’s how we have always done it”

Exactly. I blame Sapa for all that. They don’t push the issue.. would alpa be better on this issue. Probably in 5-8 years. Not immediately... when that happened to Seattle. It was 5 guys. Not 500. Yes 5 is to many. But we don’t have “hundreds” with this issue.. the biggest was SLC CRJ FO’s there were 21 people.. they have all trained or forfeited there bid..

5-8 years? How do you figure?

I'm very familiar with this particular event, as an FO the Captain's decision was questioned. Turns out the FO was completely correct and the Captain's idea was, well, retarded. The Captain in question got all butt hurt and called his buddy director at HQ and they went after blood. And yes, she was not allowed to upgrade. Got pulled down to SGU for a little attitude adjustment because she was able to show how bad the Captain's decision actually was and wouldn't relent that she had made a wrong decision.

An FO in SLC that is I think no.2 on the CRJ FO list will never get the 175 because of the retarded transition cluster developed. He is now getting 4 and 6 leg days on the 200 while other FO's on the 175 that are some 10 years junior to him are getting the primo 2 leg locals he used to be able to hold. There are new hires getting the 175 in front of him in SLC.

The seniority system has and can be superseded by company need. Nothing will change because the most important entity is happy with the results. And thus there is also PBS and that has been hurting people for so long the pain isn't noticeable any more.

I’m not going into that discussion... Start asking around how long airlines negotiations went on before they got a contract...

The number 2 FO in Slc doesn’t want to transition. Looking at the top 10. They could have by now. And every time you fly with them, they have a different story why they haven’t transitioned or tried to upgrade... or have and didn’t make it.. not saying some guys didn’t get screwed on timing of transitioning to the 175. But they all had a chance. And most could have upgraded a decade ago...

Yep, all they had to do was transfer out of SLC like everyone else.
Other then the inability to upgrade in base while others junior to you transfer in I can think of one other glaring seniority violation that happened and when called out the reason turned into "family hardship" or something along those lines. I won't go into detail because the company monitor will immediately post and call me a liar, didn't happen etc.

I'm familiar with that one too! Seniority rules are really a loose guideline, not something you can count on. Kind of like the entire PPM.

He showed me the letter of why he was bypassed. He would have to take another base until a SLC position opened, and he can't take that risk. Yes he could have upgraded and had an awful schedule, he didn't want that either.

Why can't a person bid an airplane in their base? Because it's a difficulty the company doesn't want to deal with.

Plain and simple, it's wrong, and it's a violation of seniority that would never happen at virtually all other airlines. If this ever happened at D or U it would be world war III!

I was wondering if they could have transitioned to the junior base filling the vacancies then transferred back in seniority order. Thanks. The junior FO to be awarded SLC didn’t even spend a full month in ORD before being given SLC. Talk about a big ballyhoo over what has been “how we have always done it”.
a trained pilot always gets the slot before a pilot needing trained.
They knew SLC was going to keep growing (I think) so I still don’t like it but we all know how the game gets played. Meaning you might get that outwest upgrade but you will probably have to put in for “Minnie Tour”

I think we all know how "the game" is played. But no other airline plays it that way and the commuting and financial burden is on the pilot. There is only one winner in "the game".

More on to the point, not one damn bit of this is written down, as someone said "it's just the way we've always done it".

No voice, no choice!

Some airlines displace like crazy. I was kicked out of 3 domiciles and 4 seats at eagle.... pick your poison...

"We do it better than Eagle did it/Envoy does it" isn't setting the bar very high these days. Just sayin'...

Rickair the difference is after they locked them into PDX and SEA CRJ while it was wound down, they were kicked out of base while people jr to them were on the 175 in that base. right now they are just not letting many people transfer. most airlines have a provision when a new base opens or a new equipment opens in a base you can break a seat lock. I know people who are going on a year without being allowed to transfer while new hires are getting the base and seat the sr people want. while SKW has its good things, how senority is treated here is not one of them. IMO

Which is caused by management stalling. Skywest can't afford to get left in the dust pay wise by its peers. You are also quoting worst-case scenarios.

It's funny, whenever anyone says "it could be worse", they almost always refer to eagle.

Correct - this would never happen at AA, DL or UA....

Maybe, but seniority has always been, should always be, and must remain a double edged sword. And while people may have been displaced or down graded, at least the written rules were used.

Can that be said here? Ask a SEA or PDX CRJ pilot how the displacements worked?

Consider this;

We have a situation similar to the Boeing MAX, in that that model may not even fly again this year, but maybe sooner, who knows? It’s been what, 4 months now? I haven’t kept track? Let’s say one of our fleet types is grounded for the foreseeable future. Do you really think the company would pay 75 hours to everybody to go on a three week fishing trip? Do you really think they would furlough in reverse seniority to only one of their fleet type that is flying? Train thousands of guys to fly a different type because it was written that way in an unenforceable poorly written document that really has zero legal bearing? Or do you think some cunning accountant would legally keep one side of the airline flying and cut out the cancerous side with some choice words to keep the share holders happy?

I’m pretty sure I know what would happen. And don’t say it isn’t possible, many years ago every CRJ in the world was grounded. Some S/N’s for a few days and some for many weeks. As I said what if what has plagued the MAX were to happen so to say the 175?

If you think the realm of seniority would be honored, I don’t know what to tell you. Because it won’t. Company need is what has always prevailed, and that is not going to change unless the pilot group decides to protect themselves.

I am afraid you are absolutely correct if this ever happened.

JetBlue - Joined ALPA 2014, first CBA 2018
Virgin America - Joined ALPA 2015, first CBA 2016 (granted, this was due to Alaska merger)
CommutAir - Joined ALPA 2008, first CBA 2011

Those are the three most recent US airlines I’m aware of that have organized. None took five to eight years as you claim.

Secondly, do you really think that in the current hiring environment for regional pilots Skywest can afford to remain stagnant for an extended time period?

Does SKW honor seniority like a union shop?
 

I honestly don’t know. I’m just relaying what she said. This was certainly back in the up or out days so I don’t know how she would still be employed by Skywest when she told me this is if in fact she actually went to upgrade training and didn’t pass.


But Check Complete seems to be corroborating the story.

That is a different topic. It seems the discussion is how seniority is used. Not whether certain airlines displace a lot or not. You can be at an airline that displaces like crazy but if seniority is followed in accordance to the contract, then there isn’t really a seniority issue.

Does SKW honor seniority like a union shop?
 

A ratified contract may take a couple years but what does happen immediately if you certify a union is that you go into status quo. That basically means that management can not change its current practices when dealing with pilots. In essence, your current book and past precedences and practices become a contract until you negotiate a new one. They can no longer reinterpret, add, change, delete, emphasize, etc., your current book. Any of those changes would have to be negotiated and ratified. This not only goes for work rules but also the way discipline is handled. In fact, the first thing that would be negotiated, even before a contract, is a dispute resolution process that complies with the RLA and NMB regulations, that include the ability to have a neutral arbitrator make the final decision.

Even if we assume your guess of 5-8 years is correct, the sooner you start the clock, the sooner you get to the end. Otherwise, 5-8 years later people are still making the excuse that it’ll take 5-8 years. So if it’s 3 years to reach the goal of a contract, then it’s better to start sooner rather than later.

And most of the time, it was PSAs fault why things got so bad at Eagle.