Skywest vs Envoy
 

Alright so i know this is a pretty hard time for a new hire to pick a regional airline with all the opportunities. I am looking for some of your guys experience and humble opinions on the topic.

The two airlines I have been considering to go to are Skywest and Envoy. I have just completed a interview with Skywest and was offered the 175(which i wanted).

I also have a interview lined up with Envoy. My problem is I obviously do not know who to go to. Envoy seems to be coming back and has a FLOW to american. Skywest does not but has me in the aircraft of my choice and a upcoming class date. I also understand that envoy enjoys some pretty good flight benefits through american, I do not know how skywest's are.

Out of these two airlines, what are some of your thoughts? Bases do not matter to me at this point. Thanks for reading.

Be a big boy and FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF like the rest of us did. Read the forums, spend a little time talking to actual employees, and use that grey mush on top of your neck to make a decision. Jesus Christ. What are you going to do when you actually have to make a hard decision? Poll the passengers?

There have literally been DOZENS of these posts in the past two weeks of people begging for the rest of us to solve their problems for them. You circumstances are no different than hundreds and hundreds of other pilots who are also having a hard time making a decision. Not sure about SKywest's pass program? Do you think there might be a thread somewhere in here where you'll be able to ask that question?

Don't worry, nobody likes Cbreezy very much. Unless you really want to go to American, and are willing to stick it out at the regionals until you get there, go where you are going to have the best quality of life. Going forward, most new hires at American will come from the three wholly owned companies. A flow could take 3 to 10 to even 15 years. I will tell you though that regardless of what regional you go to, if you build some time, you are going to have opportunities after about a year, here and over seas. While its nice to have a flow, they are subject to change, so you want to go some where that if you are stuck, you can have a good QOL.

I have flown for both... Go to SkyWest.. Eagle was great. But just disappointment after disappointment.. Just the way they roll. SkyWest has been great. Looking foward. Eagle (sorry cant get over the name change).. Has all its eggs in one basket. And i dont ever see them growing huge again... SkyWest on the other hand is set to grow.. Enjoy the ride..

The other thing to keep in mind about the flow to American. If you look at the quick take page, American plans to hire 1500 over the next 5 years. PSA has about 1200 on property, Piedmont almost 400, and Envoy, I'm not sure but right there that means it will probably be close to 5 years before you flow. Granted, not everyone will take the flow, but that will probably be balanced out by the military applicants, and the few other airline applicants that will have much more time than you, and maybe even better type ratings.

If you are on the 175, your flight benefits are on United and pretty much useless. If we start flying the 175 for Delta, then the flight benefits are not that bad. You can get Zed fares on different airlines. Zeds are still standby but at a discounted price. If you want to be back east like ORD and MSP, then you will have good seniority and quick upgrades. West coast is slow movement and we have probably the worst reserve rules in the industry.

Speaking of which, it would be awesome if all these people that had offers from multiple places would tell SW that they are taking other jobs because the reserve rewrite is in its sixth year of being just around the corner. If you are east coast and off reserve quick, count your blessings.

1.) Airplane doesn't matter. A jet is a Jet. The cool factor wears off in a matter of weeks. Ask anyone who has been doing this.

2) Envoy has more opportunity right now for a new hire to get in on the front end of a big wave with a huge amount of movement to AA. We have higher attrition off the top than any other regional airline out there currently. It hasn't seemed like it lately because we shrank so much recently and negated all the Captain attrition to AA over the last couple years.. but now With the 175's coming in starting in November, and the returning of block hours to us due to others not being able to staff it, the shrinkage is stopping and the movement will start again. We are planned to lose 300+ CA's to flow next year alone when the flow rate increases after we get the first 175 on property, plus all the other attrition we still have like everywhere else for people getting hired elsewhere. Envoy Attrition will be around 500 pilots next year and then on beyond that, we have only 2030 pilots. Do the math on losing 300-500+ a year with Captain upgrade hovering around #1200 right now.. things will start to move very fast now that the shrinkage has leveled off. The front of the hiring wave is where you would want to be.. IMO. The top 320 pilots aren't flowing either, they are lifers. We have had 523 pilots go to AA in the last 3 years. Plus a small number of street hires outside of that number. Next year should have the highest # of flows we have ever had. Flow starts going from 20/mo up to 30/mo limit in November.

Piedmont would also be good if you want to get to a Legacy.

I think Skywest is a good company, definitely has been one of the "better" regionals for a long time.. don't have anything bad to say about them. They Just won't have the same amount of movement off the top and opportunity to get to a Legacy with no interview like Envoy.

Here are the Envoy flow numbers to date:
http://i57.tinypic.com/2q0qe6u.png

One problem Eagle faces with the fliw is how to staff the movment that creates. Its been hard for them to do. All that meens is a overall smaller Eagle. That olan is already in motion. A guy/gal hired soon can expext a Eagle 1/3 the size it has been.

Knowing what I know about SkyWest, I would go to Envoy.

The flow is nothing to dismiss, and regardless what anybody says there is some preference to ALPA members.

Management can and will change the rules as they see fit, the mantra "Company Need" will screw you any chance they want.

It has been hard because we were losing aircraft and nobody wanted to come here.. which I wouldn't of either.

As soon as people realize the movement that is about to happen now that the shrinkage is finally stopping, we are gaining block hours again, and we have new replacement jets coming arriving and have the massive attrition of CA's leaving off the top.. people will start to come again. Just like people lateral moved and flocked to PSA, Compass etc for movement.. Classes are starting to fill up already now, guys from other airlines like Republic are coming over. We have the biggest class sizes we have had in 2+ years this and next month.. Even if we continue to shrink down to 1500 pilots.. the movement will be huge losing 400-500 guys a year off the top and senior FO's to LCC's.

"Senior FO's to LCC". That should tell you right there that the confidence in The flow/long term viability is low...

Interesting that you say base is last in your line of priorities, why isnt it your first? Why would you move yourself for a regional airline and the associated atrocious pay? Its amazing that American is still able to sell this flow nonsense to potential new hires. Envoy is not going to be able to do the amount of hiring it needs to replace the people that should be flowing to American. Do you really believe they will hurt their bottom line just to honor your flow number? People will say I'm wrong, go ask the 824 how that worked out for them 14 years later. All it takes is another event like oil prices shooting up again, another disaster or tragedy, another recession or....hint hint, a pilot shortage at the regional level and who knows what will happen but I can almost guarantee it will be bad for pilots. Skywest or Envoy you'll be sitting in the right seat for not 1, not 2, not 3, and probably at least 4 years until you upgrade. Judging by your comments you will bypass every upgrade chance until you can hold the 170. Or maybe you'll learn. Thats a long, long time of month after month of despicable and deplorable wages that you'll be enduring. But I guess at least you'll be on the aircraft of your choice :)

Go to whichever airline has a base that doesn't require a commute.

Driving to work makes this a vastly easier job. Commuting to a line can be miserable, and commuting to reserve demands a special breed of masochist. I leave my house one hour before show time and usually have enough extra time to grab a Starbucks on my way to the crew lounge. When I commuted across the country, I'd usually have to leave my house something like 24 hours prior to show time. Just think about that for a moment.

Flow, aircraft type, flight benefits, upgrade time...these variables change every day. Bases change with noticeably less frequency.

Sure, regionals (and majors) close bases all the time; just ask any LAA guy with an SFO domicile, or a Skywest guy who used to live in MRY, SMF, SBA, etc. But if you go to a relatively stable regional, and live in one of their larger bases, you have a decent chance at a less-than-horrific QOL once you get off reserve. It is relatively unlikely, for example, that SKW would close SFO, DEN, ORD, MSP, SEA, LAX, or IAH anytime soon.

To sum up: Do whatever you gotta do to avoid commuting.

Uhh, ok. What do those prior years have to do with today? The people in the 824 will say the 824 flow/arbitration didn't even exist back then. It happened in 2010/2011. AA then filed bankruptcy, then when they started recalls/hiring again in 2013, our guys started to flow and have gone ever since.

We still had Flowbacks in 2008 due to AA's 9/11 furloughs. Those letter 3 days are over, and that old agreement is long dead.

Yes, it has "been hard for them to do" during a period of time that they WANTED envoy to shrink. During the fear mongering negotiation tactics of "You will be Comaired" and "We are giving away all your flying". Well, we weren't Comaired and we are seeing a 50% growth in returned flying that the other regionals can't staff.

The plan was never to shrink Eagle to a 1/3 size. Nice fear mongering though. Clearly, given the change in the regional market, the plan to shrink Eagle has changed. Good Luck on your "Quick Upgrade".

Not every senior FO wants to wait another 3 years or so at a regional, they are ready to move on.. not everyone wants to work for AA. A lot of people here hate the way AA management is after dealing with them for so long. Some people actually want to work for Spirit, Jetblue or Frontier for QOL reasons, a more favorable domicile, or a quicker upgrade there..

Doesn't really have anything to do with "viability" of the flow. I know CA's all around me and even really close to flow going to LCC's or other Legacy carriers because it fits their needs better. I know a CA that could have already flowed to AA but went to Spirit instead and loves it because he drives to work now.

If flight benefits are important, envoy has way better flight benefits. You have the same flight benefits as a mainline pilot. Its not seniority based like United. You have as much chance as getting on a flight as any AAG employee.

I have yet to run into a SkyWest employee that felt they were mistreated by Management over there. envoy leaves much to be desired in the employee/management relations department but we are still far from being a "bad" place to work.

Whether you go to SkyWest or envoy, you will still face the "unknown" of whether there will be enough newhires to ensure your upgrade. While at either company, you will be able to gain flight experience and apply, interview and get hired by United, Delta, AA, Spirit, Southwest etc except at envoy you will have the flow in your back pocket. There are so many guys that have not experienced the career progression that we expected. Myself included. I have all the "competitive minimums" that United and Delta want but I haven't been called. Why? Because 12,000 other guys are also waiting to be called. At about 200 a month, its going to take a while. I can tell you, its a pretty good feeling knowing that in about 12 months, one way or another, I'll be at a mainline. Go to one regional airline with a guarantee of NO FLOW or a regional airline that has FLOW with the slight possibility that it might not work out. Seems pretty simple to me.

The Flow is an opportunity for career advancement. Why would someone pass up another opportunity if offered earlier? While I will agree we do have some guys that are just sitting back waiting to flow but most here recognize that they are better off taking the first opportunity for career advancement that comes.

Just because someone works for envoy, they are not locked into waiting on the flow. They can still interview at any company just as if they would if they worked for Republic, SkyWest, Compass, TSA/GoJets etc. Its just another option. I'm sorry you choose to give that up. How has that been working out for you?

Have to agree with that 100%. Same here.. Current Envoy Captain, got stuck in the lost decade with age 65 and no real hiring at the Majors for years. Check all the boxes for the other places, have the internal recs, volunteering, job fairs, and so on.. haven't been called yet for a Legacy or Southwest. Oh, well. Not that worried about it.. Screw em if they don't ever call (and they very well may not, who knows). I'll be at AA soon anyway as long as there isn't another major catastrophe, don't even need to change the uniform.. lol. This flow HAS caused me to look more unfavorably on places like the LCC's though. Otherwise I would have probably already left to one. This path, as bumpy as it has been, "should" work out FAR better financially in the long run for me personally though.

Getting these Legacy jobs is not easy like new hires into this industry seem to think. You may never get one, many people don't ever get one. It's a lot like baseball.. lots of good qualified people try but not everyone makes it to the Majors (and not everyone wants too). Some people get stuck in AA, AAA or even playing overseas.. For every 20 Captains I know around my seniority, probably only 2 or 3 have actually gotten to UAL/DAL/AA through the front door.

Getting hired at Delta is pretty much out if you aren't Military, Compass, Endeavor, a PhD, or just one of the few lucky enough to get through their rediculous arrogant screening/hiring practices. Things like.. not getting a Bachelors degree completed in 4yrs or less due to other obligations weed you out of tier 1, even with a 3.9 GPA. :rolleyes:

American is pretty much a huge longshot if you aren't Envoy, Piedmont, PSA or Military due to the very low number of normal civilian hires. The majority of New hires will be flow, the rest pretty much MIL..

United is pretty much your best and only real shot at a Legacy as a lone wolf normal Regional pilot. They are the only ones really giving a chance to normal Joe blow civilians who meet the competitive minimums.

So your chances of getting into a Legacy carrier on your own without a flow or a Military backround just aren't that great. Maybe 7-10 years from now this will be totally different. Who knows, but as of today this is the case. This industry is always just one big oil spike or terrorist attack away from total meltdown again.. even with the big retirements coming up.

I fall into the senior FO category and I don't intend to leave for an LCC. Unless it was southwest. A lot of my classmates feel the same too. But, for the past 2 years I absolutely would have, because it out flat out sucked. I tried and it never happened for me, and I'm kind of happy it didn't because going forward I think we're in a good spot.
To the OP, either airline you choose is a good option. The best way to look at a flow through is as a backup. While you're here apply at the other legacies, or LCCs if that's what you want. Or if you want AA, stay and flow. But honestly, the best thing about the FT right now is guaranteed movement off the top.

Realy good actualy.. Just pointing out. Eagle 2000' vs Eagle 2018 will be a lot smaller..

Could you imagine doing a 4 day trip with this guy?

It might be a little smaller possibly, but I think Parker has finally figured out that new hires will come Envoy in droves for a 5-6 year flow. He can keep wages lower than other regionals because new pilots will be attracted to this pipeline to AA without interviewing. Senior expensive pilots flow and are replaced by cheap 2 year captains. Plus Envoy benefits are the same as AA and that could offset some unhappiness for waiting 6 years to flow. Quick upgrades will be nice too. I don't see a shortage for Envoy, even when they start growing by taking back flying from the regionals that can't staff. Let's face it, morale and attrition rates at most regionals will be a problem. I see Envoy and Piedmont poaching hundreds of pilots from other carriers. And I don't see many leaving Envoy for Spirit, Frontier or Virgin etc due to the career earnings and retirements at AA. Not everyone wants to work for American due to whatever, but most will be willing to hang around a little longer (passing up Spirit and LCCs) to get to AA.

I had half a month of reserve at SkyWest... A good friend of mine has been on reserve at Envoy over two years now. I don't know about all this movement people are speaking of.

At SkyWest if you pick CRJ you get benefits on Delta, AA, and United. I think the 175 you don't get Delta but you do get AA after 6 months and United a week or two after starting.

I remember someone posting mandatory retirement numbers and there being more retirements in the next 5 years than there are regional pilots. If that's true (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) a flow any more than five years seems like a carrot, doesn't it?

I'll second Turbosina's post about living in base. Driving to work and flying to work are two completely different jobs. Ideally pick a regional that lets you drive to work in a relatively junior domicile.

The guy that said moving for a regional job is stupid is completely clueless. If you are fortunate enough to have a situation that allows you to avoid commuting you should pursue. And good on you for trying to make an informed choice.

Envoy/Piedmont - Best flight benefits, same Boarding Priority as AA/US employees..unlimited family Free travel, (Service charges applicable for Business/First) now with the merger with USair more destinations..access to the new AA Jetnet

Living in his mom's basement must really be getting to him. :D Poor guy.

how long is a new hire seat locked for at envoy?

:eek:

For more than 2 years now?? Ouch!!

That takes a lot of the shine off the story being told about Envoy and flow.

All SkyWest pilots board AFTER AA or envoy Pilots, FAs, Mechanics, Gate Agents, their familes, etc etc, they board last. I don't believe that SkyWest pilots can get passes for their friends or family either. For many, this isn't really a bid deal but if travel bennies are important to you, envoy really does have the best.

As an FO you can change bases BUT you CANNOT bid turbojet to turbojet aircraft (UNLESS) you displace or proffer to displace during a displacement bid.. which do happen from time to time. I have switched aircraft 3 times in displacements, sometimes because I wanted too, sometimes not.

Pretty much expect to stay on whatever you get until upgrade though.


Currently after November:
DFW- EMB 145/EMB 175
ORD- EMB 145/CRJ 700

So if you want to be the most flexible.. EMB 145 is your safest bet. Although if you get CRJ, you will probably be able to displace to whatever you want within a couple years anyway.. plus they move airplanes around like musical chairs.. CRJ could move some or all to DFW at anytime. It has happened before and could happen again.

Actually, there are guys currently on reserve at 4 years but that is because we have had very few new hires and a lot of shrinking during that time period. Not to mention, a full 35% of our pilots are on reserve right now. But since Mesa and RAH cannot fulfill their ASAs, we are having a 50% increase in flying returned and we are losing 1/3 of our Captains each year to AA. There is no way anyone hired today will sit reserve more than a few months. Like the upgrade though, it will depend on how many they hire in the coming years. We actually have many senior pilots bidding reserve right now so they can sit at home and get paid not to work. Not a bad deal really.

It has been explained many times why that has happened, and why it will be trending back down for new hires on the other envoy threads.

Past pilots reserve/upgrade time is irrelevant for a new hire.

I'll believe it when I see it. This industry is long on promise and short on delivery, and whenever it sounds too good to be true you could bank on it being exactly that.

Only if you are 100% accurate about your prognostications and claims. Can you really blame anyone for being skeptical in this industry??

Right now, today, a Skywest new hire KNOWS for certain sure he/she won't be stuck on reserve for more than a month or two (if that). An Envoy new hire cannot make that claim and can only hope that won't be the case. That's a really big deal for anyone who commutes to the job (granted that Envoy will pay for a hotel room).

I don't blame you a bit for being skeptical. I was too until it was disclosed to me what their plan was and was convinced by Parker's comments and actions that he is sincere in wanting the flow to work. Not because he is a nice guy but because he is a businessman and sees it as the cheapest solution to his problem of staffing AA regional flying.

The total 12,000 hrs of returned block flying are supposed to be complete by the end of the year. I have noticed an increase of about 30 hard lines for next month. This kind of surprised me since we have so many low time lines. I would have expected the additional flight hours to return the lines to higher times.

I would caution anyone considering a move from being too cautious. Those who move first will benefit the most. I am actually in the same boat trying to determine what major airline would be the best fit for me. You can research and try to make a educated decision but there are always unknowns.

I didn't come to Eagle for the flow but in the end, it is something that will work out very good for me. There are many pilots at Reno, TWA, Midwest, Eastern, ATA etc that might regret their career decisions, but there was no way they could have guess that things would have happened the way they did. What's the expression, "You will only know if you made the right choice when you retire." In the end, we all have to make our own choices and live with the consequences of those decisions. Overall, I would rather be a pilot starting out today than someone who had to endure the "lost decade" in the middle of their career. Until recently AA and US had 20 year upgrades. That like the lack of flow at envoy of the past is something we will not see again for quite a long time.

That very same thing was said a few months ago.

Not by me. We could also get hit by a meteorite next week. Why even get out of bed, right?

The fact of the matter is, NO airline, NONE can guarantee future hiring numbers. No matter what someone's decision might me, that uncertainty is universal.

I heard envoy is a flaming mess and to avoid at all costs? That all the airplanes are being given away and all that will be left is 40 175's??

Yup, that's right. Do us a favor and stick to your 172.