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737 MAX - Safe or Unsafe?
I’m surprised nobody is grinding this issue into pulp yet.
Thoughts? |
Nope. None.
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Define safe. That's the question everyone in the media is overlooking.
Drive to the airport-level safe? Fast food-level safe? Riding a bike-level safe? Texting while walking-level safe? When they grounded the ATR in the 90's more people died from driving as a result. |
My gut says it’s a training issue. Having flown for many years over there, it’s not a SWAG, but it is close.
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Just coming off the wire that all Max to be grounded by FAA.
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Originally Posted by Hellokitty
(Post 2781531)
Training related issue I don’t think so my friend with a superiority complex.. All 737 Max are all grounded at this moment. Even with ****ty training airplanes should not be nose diving on our fellow aviators. Go do some soul searching u prick!
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Lion air was banned from operating in the EU for years due to safety records and this crew was a young low time captain paired with a 200 hour first. American, Southwest, and United have racked up thousands of uneventful hours in the max. Yeah, it’s the plane.
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Originally Posted by Meow1215
(Post 2781602)
Based on what? There is no proof the plane is unsafe, it has been proven safe before. Airplanes are only as safe as the person flying them. Can’t help but notice the FO had 200 hours - total time. Can’t rule out a training issue, as a matter of fact it’s almost like there should be an investigation before just jumping to conclusions.
We don’t know the cause yet , but if the two crashes are related , all of the airplanes should be grounded in order to protect the safety of the general public and our fellow pilots ! I’m not sure what airplane you fly Meow1215, I’m sure you have more than 200 hours , but if an airplane pitches down on you near the ground at full trim , you wouldn’t be able to save it either. It’s better to be safe than sorry , keep them on the ground until a full explanation is known, no need to take risks! I’m sure you wouldn’t want your entire family flying around a MAX-8 on multiple trips a day for a month! Well that’s what these flight crews are doing , not knowing if the glitch is going to happen or not. I truly feel for the people who are being forced to fly this airplane at the moment , I personally would’ve called out until I hear what’s going on. Specially since Boeing said that it’s bringing out a fix within weeks , which means there is something wrong with the airplane. |
How many Maxs does SWA have in their inventory right now? The APC profile says only 9. Seems low.
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Originally Posted by LATIN
(Post 2781615)
200 hours or not , if the airplane pitches down on you like the lion air did , there is no way that 200 hours or 8000 hours will save you.
We don’t know the cause yet , but if the two crashes are related , all of the airplanes should be grounded in order to protect the safety of the general public and our fellow pilots ! I’m not sure what airplane you fly Meow1215, I’m sure you have more than 200 hours , but if an airplane pitches down on you near the ground at full trim , you wouldn’t be able to save it either. It’s better to be safe than sorry , keep them on the ground until a full explanation is known, no need to take risks! I’m sure you wouldn’t want your entire family flying around a MAX-8 on multiple trips a day for a month! Well that’s what these flight crews are doing , not knowing if the glitch is going to happen or not. I truly feel for the people who are being forced to fly this airplane at the moment , I personally would’ve called out until I hear what’s going on. Specially since Boeing said that it’s bringing out a fix within weeks , which means there is something wrong with the airplane. You know the Lion air crew before the crash crew had the same issue as the crew that crashed and was able not to crash. |
Originally Posted by LATIN
(Post 2781615)
200 hours or not , if the airplane pitches down on you like the lion air did , there is no way that 200 hours or 8000 hours will save you.
We don’t know the cause yet , but if the two crashes are related , all of the airplanes should be grounded in order to protect the safety of the general public and our fellow pilots ! I’m not sure what airplane you fly Meow1215, I’m sure you have more than 200 hours , but if an airplane pitches down on you near the ground at full trim , you wouldn’t be able to save it either. It’s better to be safe than sorry , keep them on the ground until a full explanation is known, no need to take risks! I’m sure you wouldn’t want your entire family flying around a MAX-8 on multiple trips a day for a month! Well that’s what these flight crews are doing , not knowing if the glitch is going to happen or not. I truly feel for the people who are being forced to fly this airplane at the moment , I personally would’ve called out until I hear what’s going on. Specially since Boeing said that it’s bringing out a fix within weeks , which means there is something wrong with the airplane. |
Originally Posted by MelT
(Post 2781625)
How many Maxs does SWA have in their inventory right now? The APC profile says only 9. Seems low.
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The aircraft was certified with new systems and those systems were neither described in the FM or trained for in procedures yet the FAA signed off on that. THAT should bother every professional pilot out there. Yes, the jet is safe 99% of the time but if I found out that there was some secret flight control enhancement on my jet that no operator knew about and had no way of knowing about I'd go fricking ape sh%%t and can't believe that any professional pilot on this planet wouldn't.
If you defend the actions of the FAA and Boeing on this please elaborate. If you fly for AA or SWA please let elaborate on the weak response from the pilots and their unions on this. Why aren't you calling for a full investigation on WHAT ELSE was allowed to pass muster without any knowledge? Stop telling us what a great jet it is - focus on the process here and how it literally set up a weaker pilot (yet completely legal) to fail. |
Originally Posted by dash8driver
(Post 2781634)
34. That equates to the loss of 15,000+ block hours a month.
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Originally Posted by wiz5422
(Post 2781655)
Ouch, this compounded with the planes out for MX and southwest profits are taking a hit.
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Originally Posted by RI830
(Post 2781661)
Why are pilots suddenly concerned with company profits suddenly?
DH |
Originally Posted by RI830
(Post 2781661)
Why are pilots suddenly concerned with company profits suddenly?
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Originally Posted by dash8driver
(Post 2781678)
What do you think puts food in my kids mouths?
We go around endlessly about being safe and triple checking things and getting home safe (to those who you feed). But when the Max gets grounded by Trump and then by the FAA. We must be outraged!! The 787 was grounded and we didn’t hear quite the outrage for that. Where’s the outrage when hundreds of planes are grounded due to polar vortexes and punishing nor’easters? No emotion for company profits then? If the plane has a problem....write it up! If the plane has a flaw....ground it. The takeoff is the only thing we can delay indefinitely. |
Originally Posted by RI830
(Post 2781694)
Your paycheck....not company profits. Y’all sure were concerned when things were flattish!
We go around endlessly about being safe and triple checking things and getting home safe (to those who you feed). But when the Max gets grounded by Trump and then by the FAA. We must be outraged!! The 787 was grounded and we didn’t hear quite the outrage for that. Where’s the outrage when hundreds of planes are grounded due to polar vortexes and punishing nor’easters? No emotion for company profits then? If the plane has a problem....write it up! If the plane has a flaw....ground it. The takeoff is the only thing we can delay indefinitely. |
Until further notice - unsafe.
And that can go into 100’s of different directions. The Ethiopian crew must have been aware of the Lion Air accident and possible MCAS issues. So either it’s related - or it’s not. Liability wise nobody - read nobody - can help your airline from going out of business if it turns out to be related and powers that be decided not to ground the airplane. And that’s why they have. It’s cheaper to ground them now then possibly have to pay and go out of business later. This wasn’t an emotional decision this was a business decision. |
I jumpseat on WN all the time to work, (thanks guys!), I do agree with the grounding of all Max’s. None of us get paid enough to fly an airplane that clearly has an issue. Hopefully Boeing and the FAA will do some soul searching and get this thing fixed the right way! Test flights, sim emergencies, training manuals, etc. I was a little surprised what a WN pilot told me the first time I rode on a Max a few months ago. I stopped in the cockpit to asked to ask for a ride and were just BS-ing about what type of differences training they had. The answer was just a couple hours of CBT, etc. Flight-crews and the flying public deserve a lot better from the FAA, DOT, Boeing, and the Companies that operate these.
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Originally Posted by Peacock
(Post 2781718)
Find one post before yours that you’d describe as “outrage”
https://denver.cbslocal.com/2019/03/...enver-airport/ This storm alone will cause substantial more chaos than the grounding of the MAX. |
Originally Posted by RI830
(Post 2781737)
Multiple posts amongst threads in regards to the grounding of the Max. Trump this...Trump that...FAA knows best!
https://denver.cbslocal.com/2019/03/...enver-airport/ This storm alone will cause substantial more chaos than the grounding of the MAX. |
Originally Posted by Hellokitty
(Post 2781730)
Biggest idiot on APC!
Originally Posted by Hellokitty
(Post 2781730)
You at this moment blamed the crew for being far less experienced and not trained in par to our standards. We shouldn’t be fighting for control of our airplanes. Either way the planes are grounded now!
If you come up with something besides personal insults and excuses feel free to change my mind. I want all pilots trained to safe standards - regardless to their geographic location. |
Originally Posted by Itsajob
(Post 2781633)
It’s not like the autopilot commanded a snap roll. It slowly put in trim until it reached the autopilot limits.
On another note - Runaway stabilizer as a result of MCAS issues or runaway that’s always been a potential failure on every 737 ever produced is still basically...... runaway stabilizer. Used to be a memory item at brand X when I flew them there. Still is on my current 777 and probably every other Boeing out there. Handle the problem, fly the aircraft, turn off the cutout switches and land the broken aircraft. 8000 hours? One can probably do that, no problem. 200? Might be asking a lot. |
Originally Posted by Meow1215
(Post 2781761)
Nah bud, you hold that title strongly if you think my quote even comes close to qualifying compared to some of the stupidity found on here.
And yes, I do firmly believe that someone with 200 hrs total time is not appropriately trained to be operating a 737. There is no way your going to convince me otherwise. It’s simply not enough experience. History is riddle with accidents from pilots who were in over their heads. Not saying a 200 hr wonder couldn’t fly a plane, I’m saying they don’t have enough experience for that .1% event. And that may not be the case here, but it is a relevant factor that the FO was highly in experienced. If you come up with something besides personal insults and excuses feel free to change my mind. I want all pilots trained to safe standards - regardless to their geographic location. |
Originally Posted by Hellokitty
(Post 2781805)
So is the 737 operated single pilot? That aircraft had a very senior and experience Captain behind the wheel which is one fact you failed to mention!.I do agree with you on the experience level of a 200hour guy though.
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Originally Posted by Hellokitty
(Post 2781805)
So is the 737 operated single pilot? That aircraft had a very senior and experience Captain behind the wheel which is one fact you failed to mention!.I do agree with you on the experience level of a 200hour guy though.
I agree, that aircraft had a very senior captain on board, I believe 8,000 hrs. How much time was in the 737x8? Who was flying? Can you honestly say that in the event of an abnormal situation that someone with 200 hrs is going to help the situation or potentially make it worse? I reiterate - I don't know what happened. But people are making decisions about these airplanes based on emotion, not evidence. When an airplane goes through certification it needs to be proved safe and airworthy. If something is wrong, yes it needs to be corrected - but you cannot discount the fact that the air crews in these two accidents very well could have played a role, and it is highly probably that they did given the lack of training and experience. |
Originally Posted by dash8driver
(Post 2781678)
What do you think puts food in my kids mouths?
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Originally Posted by Hellokitty
(Post 2781805)
So is the 737 operated single pilot? That aircraft had a very senior and experience Captain behind the wheel which is one fact you failed to mention!.I do agree with you on the experience level of a 200hour guy though.
Sorry, but crew experience here definitely needs to be looked at. Now if there’s some hidden flaw in the MAX that has yet to come to light, the crew will be vindicated. But if this is yet again a plane where MMACS activated and was a tug n pull war the entire time without touching the electric power cutoff switches for the stab, then it’s a very sad and repeated event that shouldn’t have happened. |
Originally Posted by RI830
(Post 2781661)
Why are pilots suddenly concerned with company profits suddenly?
as in a long list of bankruptcies back in the day. you'll learn. |
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2781791)
FYI - MCAS doesn’t operate when the autopilot is engaged.
On another note - Runaway stabilizer as a result of MCAS issues or runaway that’s always been a potential failure on every 737 ever produced is still basically...... runaway stabilizer. Used to be a memory item at brand X when I flew them there. Still is on my current 777 and probably every other Boeing out there. Handle the problem, fly the aircraft, turn off the cutout switches and land the broken aircraft. 8000 hours? One can probably do that, no problem. 200? Might be asking a lot. |
Originally Posted by BeechPilot33
(Post 2781873)
where are the cutout switches on the max?
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Never flown a 737 so help me understand.
The MCAS is not working when AP is engaged? If it receives faulty info and then trims nose down does that big trim wheel run? Should the above be treated as a trim runaway? |
Originally Posted by costalpilot
(Post 2781871)
cause they have memories.????
as in a long list of bankruptcies back in the day. you'll learn. Can’t imagine that your union contract won’t have you pay protected when you MAX flight is grounded. Quit worrying about profits through a grounding and worry about your passenger and families safety. You’re pay protected....are we pilots are all gaming for highest pay with lowest work? |
Originally Posted by BeechPilot33
(Post 2781873)
where are the cutout switches on the max?
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2781928)
Someone else answered. Same general location they are on every other 737.
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Originally Posted by RI830
(Post 2781661)
Why are pilots suddenly concerned with company profits suddenly?
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Originally Posted by LATIN
(Post 2781615)
200 hours or not , if the airplane pitches down on you like the lion air did , there is no way that 200 hours or 8000 hours will save you.
We don’t know the cause yet , but if the two crashes are related , all of the airplanes should be grounded in order to protect the safety of the general public and our fellow pilots !
Originally Posted by cole
(Post 2781629)
You know the Lion air crew before the crash crew had the same issue as the crew that crashed and was able not to crash.
Originally Posted by Itsajob
(Post 2781633)
It’s not like the autopilot commanded a snap roll. It slowly put in trim until it reached the autopilot limits. A big loud clacking trim wheel should have been a clue. Differences in pilot training are huge around the world. I wouldn’t avoid traveling with my family on any US airline or something like British Air or Lufthansa, but I wouldn’t ride on Aeroflot on a bet regardless of the type of plane.
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2781639)
The aircraft was certified with new systems and those systems were neither described in the FM or trained for in procedures yet the FAA signed off on that. THAT should bother every professional pilot out there.
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Originally Posted by RI830
(Post 2781694)
Your paycheck....not company profits. Y’all sure were concerned when things were flattish!
We go around endlessly about being safe and triple checking things and getting home safe (to those who you feed). But when the Max gets grounded by Trump and then by the FAA. We must be outraged!! The 787 was grounded and we didn’t hear quite the outrage for that. Where’s the outrage when hundreds of planes are grounded due to polar vortexes and punishing nor’easters? No emotion for company profits then? If the plane has a problem....write it up! If the plane has a flaw....ground it. The takeoff is the only thing we can delay indefinitely. |
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