SWAPA early open
 

Is it true SWAPA has notified management of their intent to reopen formal contract negotiations six months early (March 2020)?

Yes. SWAPA also invited the company to meet in January for a sneak peak at the completely re-written contract proposal, to which the company accepted.

Sounds to me the company realizes how much they need the pilots’ help to restore public confidence in the Max...

Let's put this in context however...you don't call an alcoholic cured just because they had one sober day. Southwest has had poor labor relations for quite some time now, it will take months...more like years to see if they've changed their approach to labor.

Bahahahaha. I applaud your optimism, but let’s face it, one they don’t need us THAT bad and two we’ll pi$$ away the leverage that we do have.

Settle in for five years of negotiations, especially with a complete rewrite. That’s fine, but this contract better be knocked out of the park as it’s hard to imagine that airline pilots will have a better negotiating environment than the one we’re setting up for.

P.S. I will strike...

We won’t get released.....

It doesn't matter if you get released or not. That's outside of your control. What's in your control is the willingness to do it. And that's the important part.

Irrelevant. If you aren’t willing to Telegraph your WILLINGNESS to strike, you’re working against the union


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It's this dumb assed mentality that allows management to win.

If we are at a standstill, we will. Whack, I’ll stand next to you. But not awkwardly close.

Mmmm... May be a more labor friendly administration, or with Spirit and Frontier and JetBlue and Moxy the NMB might just say, ‘well why the h€|| not?”

And there's a perfect example of the problem.

We have way too many guys like this who outsmart themselves with that kind of thinking, believing they know better.

How's that vacation change working out?

We are our own worst enemy.

SWA is the largest airline in terms of domestic travel in the US. If we shut down it would drastically affect commerce.

The RLA will not allow a strike where that would occur. The last strike allowed was Spirit when they had less than 1,000 pilots. We have nearly 10,000.

We can vote to strike. We’ll never get the chance. Management knows it. Your only shot at a quick CBA is to hold more leverage than the other side. The massive turnout during the pickets apparently worked in 2016. Food for thought....

Again...negotiations are hours old and our pilot group is already neutering itself with gross misunderstandings.

The RLA doesn't allow/not allow a strike. The NMB can't force you to negotiate forever (assuming you negotiate in good faith). The PEB can't stop a strike. Only Congress can step in after very likely 2, 30 day cooling off periods. Congress has never prevented an airline from seeking self-help, only railroads.

The media scrutiny on the company (and pilot group), and the loss of revenue during the cooling period will be massive. Customer access to technology and SWA permissive booking policies will further exacerbate this effect. This is real leverage.

There are some excellent resources on the SWAPA website explaining the RLA and book away phenomenon. Hopefully as we go into negotiations, more pilots become aware of process.

There is no reason we should not have an ILC.

Proximity....

You are incorrect about a PEB not stopping a strike. I went on Strike at AA in 1997.... for about 32 minutes before Clinton called the PEB and we were required to go back to flying.

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/15/b...them-back.html

Kap

A PEB starts another cooling off period, during which each side must maintain status quo. However, a PEB cannot prevent a strike once the PEB cooling off period expires. Again...only Congress can prevent a strike.

In the 1997 AA negotiations, Clinton called a PEB right as the NMB cooling off period ended, stopping the strike right when it started. Then negotiations continued leading to a contract that was approved by the majority of APA members. No doubt AA pilots got a better deal than if they had believed that the "RLA will never release us", but I'm least knowledgeable about AA so maybe someone else can fill in the gaps.

What happens if you don't go back to work. Do they put all the pilots in jail?

The early open is great I guess. I don’t think it will make a bit of difference, though. The contract was completely rewritten by SWAPA. Look for the easy sections to get settled early and the tough ones to linger for a couple of years at least. This is not going to be quick at all.
I would not be surprised to see the company publicly (on YouTube like with the FAs) offer an extension as their opener.
The trouble with this pilot group is that there are too many independent thinkers and company guys who just can’t help themselves. We saw it last time and we will see it again. I am optimistic that this time will be better, but let’s face facts. The company has hired a former SWAPA President and a sworn enemy former crew scheduler as their pilot labor relations team. How do you think that is going to work out for us?

We had to start early to settle on a220 rates!

Jk

I am ready to vote YES right now.!
It might feel good to be part of the majority once.

Recent history shows, with multiple work groups, that SWA prefers to extend negotiations years beyond contractual expiration dates.

Keep in mind, negotiations are not with SWA. They are with FordHarrison, a law firm that advises all airlines in negotiations. SWA sets the agenda, FH calls the negotiating shots, outward and hidden, ethical and otherwise. Their first step is division; between mgmt and labor, between employee groups, and within employee groups.

Arguing within the group about things like RLA rules, who’d be willing to strike and other non-pertinent (as of now) issues helps their agenda.

PS, and most of all, consider why a board that touts the family culture of the company would retain a firm whose first step is to divide the company. Who is loyal to whom?

Early opener? This is great news.

Going to start boat shopping. I figure with the MAX back any day and a new contract mid next year I’ll be ready for summer in style!

Something for every Southwest pilot to remember. 3 of our employee groups have industry-leading contracts: Flight Attendants, Dispatchers, and Mechanics. Other employee groups have come to expect industry-leading on every contract. Why aren't we?

Because Tom Dean and the "what are you willing to give up for that" crowd.

Like Proximity said, it doesn’t matter. It’s the “book away effect“ leading up to the POSSIBILITY of a strike that creates fear and uncertainty in the minds of passengers, causing them to “book away” from the airline in question. That, in turn, gets the attention of airline management.

Case in point: in 2018, Allegiant’s pilots threatened to strike entirely outside of the bounds of the RLA. There was no possibility of them getting released because they weren’t even in Section 6 negotiations or mediation. Allegiant’s management knew there was no possibility of their pilots getting released and any strike would have been completely illegal.

Yet, even with that backdrop, Allegiant’s management turned scared. In a 2018 court filing, they stated this:

That is the “book away” effect. Had Allegiant’s pilots been on a legal path to self help, it would have made their threat of the possibility of a strike that much more real to management. That is leverage. “Book away” happens before a release and way before a strike ever happens.

Btw, Allegiant ended 2018 with 76 aircraft. That’s roughly 10% the size of SWA’s current fleet.

The 24-minute strike by American in 1997 was not stopped by President Clinton. It was delayed by 60 days, the length of a PEB as provided for in the RLA.

As Proximity explained, the American pilots ended up settling their dispute with management during the 60-day PEB period, so they never went back on strike. The reason, then, the American pilots didn’t go back on strike in 1997 had nothing to do with the President’s ability to stop a strike. Had they not come to an agreement within the 60 days of the PEB, they would have been able to go back on strike. The President couldn’t have stopped them.

One of the great myths propagated among the SWA pilot group by those who should know better is that “the President will shut down” any strike that might happen. Again, the President only has the power to delay a strike with a PEB by 60 days. He/she can’t stop a strike from happening.

Typically, a PEB occurs immediately following the expiration of the 30-day cooling-off period after a release from mediation and proffer of arbitration. The American 1997 case was a little unusual in that Clinton allowed a 24-minute gap in between the end of the cooling-off period and the PEB. Normally, the cooling-off period would roll right into a PEB. A strike is prohibited by law during both the cooling-off period and a PEB.

Also, some people might tell you that the President can unilaterally extend a PEB past 60 days or call a second PEB. Not true! He/she could only do so if both sides agreed to it. According to the Department of Justice:

That crowd is at least 84% of this pilot group. Same as it ever was. :rolleyes:

I think the demographic has changed, especially with so many regional guys on property now, almost all of which have been through contract negotiations at some point and know what a good contract can have, vs not knowing what we don’t know.

In this environment it’s not “what are we willing to give up”, but “we can get all we think we’re entitled to”, and still have a prosperous company and secure future.

PS. I’m not an entitlement millennial, I’m in the last few years of a career that finally has the potential to give a return on the dues I’ve paid for three decades, and that’s what I and many others expect in the next TA.

My last job was with a regional who was involved in negotiations for 7 years. We asked repeatedly for a cooling off period and was always denied by the NMB. 99% voted to strike. Vote of no confidence in management. Hamstrung by the NMB and the RLA.....for 7 years.

Only got a contract when codeshares threatened to cancel contracts over the extreme number of canceled flights due to FO’s quitting and going to other regionals. We had less than 200 airplanes.

Maybe SWAPA can buy those idiots in the NMB off to move things along but consider me jaded in regards to prolonged negotiations. I’ve got my list of things I want fixed and have no problem voting no if it’s not there. But I don’t see the largest domestic airline ever getting released.

Parking brake. Logbook.

The NMB’s job is to settle the dispute without an interruption to interstate commerce. They only care about unfairness to the extent that it doesn’t slow down the settling of the dispute.

The NMB will put pressure on whichever side exhibits more susceptibility to settling. That side is almost always the less educated and less informed side. That side is almost always labor. Thus labor ends up believing the RLA hamstrings them when, in reality, their own lack of awareness holds them back. You need more than a RLA flowchart/1st grade understanding of RLA dynamics to be successful when you’re going up against highly competent airline management groups and their paid assassins like FordHarrison.

The NMB can and does lie to one side or the other as a tactic to create pressure in order to spur on the settlement of a dispute. Labor, almost always the less educated and informed side, is typically targeted more by the NMB for lies and half-truths in an attempt to get them to settle because they are easier to lie to. Management is more difficult to lie to because they’re much smarter about the RLA.

I’d be curious which regional you were at and exactly how the story played out.

Republic. Weren’t asking for the moon. Soft pay and rates commensurate with peers.

Company was more interested in union busting and stalling until they absolutely had to come to the table. There was nothing in good faith about the garbage they pulled.

A fundamental difference between Republic and Southwest is that we own and fly under our own code. The “book away” concept is very real, and there’s a world of difference between a regional airline that nobody knows as Republic vs. a household name like Southwest Airlines.

Agreed. Still didn’t prevent SWA from stalling for 4 years. One could argue the industry is pretty different in 2020 vs 2012-16. I’d say the ball in more on our side of the court now but time will tell.

What RJSAviator said, and...

Questions I’d have about Republic’s case to start would be:
1) When was the CBA’s amendable date?
2) When was mediation filed for?
3) When was strike authorization taken? What was result?
4) Any accusations of illegal job actions?
5) Any motions filed by Republic management against the pilots?

SWA’s mechanics were also in negotiations and mediation for 7+ years. That’s not evidence that the RLA is broken. That’s a direct result of the mechanics not playing the RLA game well.

To begin with, they waited more than 3 years from their contract amendable date until they filed for mediation. They had at least two motions filed against them for illegal job actions. They even had a no strike clause in their CBA (of dubious enforceability). All of those things and more set them up for 7+ years for a new CBA.

They were their own worst enemy. They got outplayed by a smarter management team. Victory goes to the smarter side.

And SWAPA’s last round of negotiations and mediation? Similar story. There are perhaps 50 pilots within our group who have more than a first grade understanding of the RLA, including, many within SWAPA. That’s why TA1 nearly passed and that’s why our CBA lags the industry in many important ways.

If an adequate number of our pilots understood the RLA, you wouldn’t have heard and continue to hear things like:

1) We’ll never get released (as if that’s the only thing that matters and the case is therefore closed).
2) The NMB will just put us on ice forever (ergo, we might as well vote yes sooner than later)
3) The President will just shut down any strike (therefore, we have no leverage under the RLA).
4) The RLA is stacked against labor (it’s not - it’s stacked against the less intelligent side).
5) The NMB will just drag our mediation for years (this is a variation of the “they’ll put us on ice forever” argument. But there’s some truth that they will allow us to stay in mediation longer than we like if we don’t play the game well).

1. Amendable Oct 2007. Started negotiating in April. TA ratified Nov 2015.

2. My memory isn’t that great. Went through multiple mediators though.

3. Don’t know the date for that either. Over 99% voted to strike. Nothing happened.

4. Not that I can recall.

5. Not that I recall.

Bedford and Heller were the idiots who “successfully” argued that a 100 seat airplane didn’t have 100 seats because they didn’t intend to sell a ticket for the last seat. Therefore it didn’t exist.

They took the seat back off and made it a coffee table. All to avoid paying pilots a higher pay rate.

And then refused to pay pilots the same pay for Dash -8 aircraft with the same number of seats as the ERJ. Because it was had props.

And also refused to hold vacancy bids for new aircraft/bases because senior people bid it and it would cost training events. It was cheaper to displace people around and call it a “displacement vacancy”. Whatever the hell that is...wasn’t defined anywhere in the CBA.

Trying to get anything done with those morons is like arguing with Bill Clinton on what the definition of “is” is.

BTW... I'm more than willing to give up the following "hard-won gains":

- DTC limits
- STC base-shopping
- Perfectly willing to exchange GDO's for various items. One GDO per item.
- TGDO, particularly for ETOPS training.

Just a few off the top of my head...

What? Those were hard earned, SWApA "GAINS"! ;)

All the more reason to offer them up to show our flexibility and "willingness to give something up." ;)