$1M less retirement at SWA than UA/DL
 

These charts are taken from the United Airlines Contract Comparison Guide published in the first quarter of 2017. The charts show the difference in retirement growth at various airlines on two different career trajectories (narrow body only as we are limited to at SWA versus a wide body career path as is available at the other "Big 4" airlines). The assumptions the charts are based on are explained in the notes at the top of the image.

The bottom line to me is that, after 30 years, the retirement savings of a pilot at UA or DL, based on company contributions to retirement funding, is approximately one million dollars greater than that of a pilot at SWA. A pilot at AA would have approximately $500K greater retirement savings than a pilot at SWA.

After 30 years, the retirement fund of a SWA pilot would be worth $3.759M.

On a wide body career path, after 30 years, the retirement fund of a UA pilot would be worth $4.709M, at DL $4.694M, and at AA $4.261M.

On a narrow body career path, after 30 years, the retirement fund of a UA pilot would be worth $4.159M, at DL $4.165M, and at AA $3.762M.

IMO, this illustrates one aspect of the giant disparity in career compensation between pilots at SWA and the rest of the Big 4. To me, it's just one more reason why we need GIANT improvements across the board to result from the current round of contract negotiations.

I suppose another way to look at it is that pilots at SWA value the "psychic wage" and the "luv culture" and all of the other "benefits" of working for the "quirky", "fun-loving" Texas airline so much that we think it's worth a million dollar hit to our retirement funds over the course of our careers. That says nothing of the hit we are all apparently willing to take in so many other areas of our lives for the privilege of working for the home of "The Southwest Shuffle."

Of course, since these charts were published in 2017, they do not include the improvements to retirement funding that have occurred since then at a couple of other places like Alaska and Delta (if they approve/ratify their AIP).

"The Southwest Shuffle"

Big Deal


Do UAL pilots get SWAG points.

Do they get the honor of paying for their own hotel and or Uber

Do they get the privilege of paying for their own employee parking


The list goes on and on what WN pilots get that UAL do not.

Someone needs to put out some charts that look back on the previous 30 years and compare actual career earnings and retirement savings at all the airlines. That would be interesting to see.

The note says those charts are based on 1000 credit hours per year…so 72.5 tfp/month? Or the other way around? Math is hard

It would be the other way around, so around 96tfp a month.

I am also assuming this chart counts the current disparity in our DC 15 percent vs their 16 percent, a difference which is almost certain to be remedied this contract.

Where SWA is risky is the 10 percent chance that you are going to go on long term medical. The company quits funding your 401k and profit sharing just as soon as you run out of sick trips. THAT absolutely needs to get fixed asap. Imagine how much money the company saves by screwing pilots that get sick with cancer and other long term illnesses. LUV indeed.

YUP! This is 100% my line in the sand for contract 2020. Not only does the company need to harmonize all the disability plans, loss of license, AND treat those who are out on medical with dignity and respect — whatever solution they ultimately provide needs to continue to fund retirement until pilot retirement age. If that’s not in there, I’m a hard NO.

^^^^^^This is my line in the sand as well. I just hope there are enough of us. We are all one medical emergency from being cast aside.

My understanding is that Delta's AIP is proposing 18% for their B-Fund after two years. We will have to significantly beat that if our retirement is going to come close to competing with the value of a DL or UA (or even AA) pilot's retirement fund after a typical 30-year career trajectory at one of those places versus a typical career trajectory at SWA. Not only can a pilot at one of the other Big 4 airlines upgrade more quickly, but they also will typically go on to fly wide bodies.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON, besides the tired old rationalization, "Because that's the way it has always been done in this industry," that we have to limit ourselves to basing our contractual demands to the confines of narrow body pilots. There is no law that says we have to do it that way.

In fact, in 2012, a judge from the Eastern District of New York shot down the argument made by the US Airlines Pilots Association (USAPA) that a proposal from management was unreasonable because it didn't conform to industry standards: "USAPA argues that defendants' proposal is unreasonable because it does not conform to industry standards as USAPA defines them. In order to assess this contention, the court would be forced to assess the substantive proposals of each party and to weigh their reasonableness. Doing so would take the court beyond the permissible scope of a bad faith bargaining inquiry" (US Airlines Pilots Ass'n v. US Airways, Inc., 859 F. Supp. 2d 283).

Not only was the court not interested in "industry standards" in the context of assessing bad faith bargaining but it realized getting involved in the discussion of what is "industry standard" and what is not was outside of its authority. It didn't find the company in violation of the requirement to "exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements" because it proposed something that was outside the bounds of the union's conception of "industry standards." Neither would SWAPA be found to be in violation of the RLA, despite what people like TD and CK might assert, if SWAPA demanded the best career compensation package, narrow body or wide body, in the entire airline industry.

The only party that is binding us to the idea that we must limit ourselves to strictly narrow body contract comparisons because that's what we think is "industry standard" is ourselves. We have bought into the self-limiting conceptualization that the only "reasonable" way to approach contract negotiations is through the prism of metrics lke other narrow body pilots' compensation structure and narrow body revenue per seat mile figures. The company luvs us for that.

In 2023, economic power resides on the side of pilots. There are not enough pilots willing to fill in as scabs in the current environment to provide the company with the comforting notion that they could break a pilot's strike with replacements. And, after the Great Christmas Meltdown of 2022, the company absolutely does not want to present our customers with another airline shutdown scenario any time again in the next several years. Right now, pilots, and especially SWA pilots, have unprecedented economic leverage if they wield it correctly.

In a 1988 RLA case, referencing a Supreme Court decision, one federal district court judge put it this way: "the labor laws allow economic strength ultimately to control the establishment of contract terms, regardless of which side may have better reasons for its position" (Independent Federation of Flight Attendants v. TWA, 682 F.Supp. 1003).

Regardless of how "reasonable" or outside the guardrails of perceived "industry standards" the company thinks it might be, SWA pilots have the economic power to demand and receive not just the industry-leading narrow body contract, but the industry-leading contract, period. Now is not the time to settle (again) for less than we deserve and less than we can achieve.

I wonder how many people (FO and CA) are clueless as to how behind some of our stuff is compared to DAL...

If someone says in response to at Delta you make XX a month and only have to fly 80 hours " well, we can just pick up a couple of trips and make more..."

Im gonna bring a ghost pepper, eat it, and wipe my hands all over everything on their side...

And that's just the minute tip of the ever growing iceberg...

You know the answer to that. How many one-airline wonders have sat over there on their bully pulpit and explained why WN was industry leading and left you wondering, “Has he ever even MET a pilot from another airline?” These are the same guys who can’t tell the difference between a Metro and a Dash.

Our only hope is that Lewbronski is sharing all of this great content not only here, but on the other forum, and with his reps and the SWAPA board.

ideally he would ask for time to address the board in person during the next SWAPA meeting in Dallas. That request should be granted as any member has the right to address the board in open session. Force them to listen to what he is saying.

One of my lines in the sand as well along with a drastic increase in our TFP rates and full retro.

it is disgusting how they treat the pilots out on medical .

Yes it is. Nobody cares until they go out and see the true LUV. I’ve experienced it. I’ve had no LUV since.

Ditto... unless addressed, I won't even look at anything else in any potential TA before voting NO.

While I agree with you this is exactly why the job SWAPA has is 1000 times harder than management. SWAPA is composed of roughly 9K members each with their own wants and needs. SWAPA has to somehow get a large enough coalition together to get it passed. Very difficult. Management has such and easier job. Every single person in management wants to take everything from the worker. Take every dollar and every bit of compensation. They are all united on that front, there is no individual wants and needs, they all want us to steal from your families table. The more they take from you the better their bonus and future position is.

I don’t envy SWAPA NC at all.

BTW my want is to strangle the goose to get every golden egg out of it then discard the barely living carcass.

If the last several guys I've talked to are any indication, SWAPA's job is not challenging. By that, I mean, as long as whatever TA they present to the membership has: 1) a pay rate increase that doesn't lag too far behind what DL and AS produced, and 2) comes with some sort of explicit or tacit SWAPA endorsement (ie, JW's explaining that he's not telling you how to vote, but that he was personally voting yes during the last round of negotiations), then the TA will be ratified by the membership.

I'm afraid that we could maintain our contract as is with the exception of a 15-20% DOS rate raise and, as long as someone like CM or JR says something that even remotely sounds like, "This is the best we're gonna be able to do," or "I think it's a good deal," then a TA like that will get ratified.

The degree of cluelessness and embracing-of-the-SWA-cult is strong across the seniority spectrum even after the meltdown. Since most pilots don't end up going out on disability and a good chunk of our list is now younger and see disability as something that happens to older folk, it seems like the general view on improving our pitiful disability programs is, "Ya, that sucks, but I'm not gonna lose the time value of a raise in order to hold out for better disability."

The idea that SWA has unparalleled scheduling "flexibility" also holds us back. I can't even count the number of times I've heard pilots say something like, "Ya, but I can make more at SWA and work fewer days. My buddies at Delta and United all have to work 18 days per month and can't trade. At SWA, I work the days I want to work and my W-2 is way bigger than all my friends at other airlines. They're all jealous." I personally think that argument is complete bullsh**, but the majority of the people I fly with seem to strongly believe that SWA's "flexibility" is worth the industry-lagging contract we have.

Do you think the SWAPA NC is even aware that they are not legally required to limit themselves to negotiate based on what is considered industry standard for narrow body pilots? If they are, why is what we're hearing from them seeming to indicate that, at best, they're demanding some industry-leading narrow body contract features?

Almost everyone I fly with and talk to believe one or more (usually all) of the standard old litany of BS ideas about why we can't have nice things:

• The "squozen balloon" idea (the courts have specifically said, "movement toward the position of the other side is not a requirement of good faith bargaining. '[a]n employer may insist on positions . . . even if the union may consider the proposals greedy." (AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION INTERNATIONAL v. Spirit Airlines, Inc., Case No. 08-CV-13785)
• The mediator will put us on ice forever
• The President will just shut us down
• Congress will just shut us down
• "It's the best deal we're gonna get"
• "If we vote this down, the next deal won't be able to overcome the lost time value of money"

Why isn't SWAPA educating the membership on these specific points? They are the ones I've heard several hundred times each over the years as the go-to reasons our pilots believe we really don't have that much leverage and, thus, are willing to settle for WAY less than we can achieve.

God I wish you’d rub off even just a little on some of our fellow pilots.

Just run on the dead goose carcass strategy. Guys always think I’m kidding when I bring it up but by the end of the trip they realize differently. I want to absolutely destroy the “industry standard” with this contract. I could care less if the company is solvent, that is not of my concern. Like I said I want to leave a goose lying on the side of the road for the wolves to come get. It’s all about winning to me…

BTW you gave me the reasons why SWAPAs job is so hard. It is hard because the morons saying that to you about just wanting higher pay. Their wants are pay. You have others that the line in the sand is medical. Others it is uniform, parking etc etc etc. SWAPA was a good old boys network for a long time. They don’t have the history that others have. They just don’t know how to rally the troops to get behind the whole enchilada. They lack the killer instinct, they care too much about the company to get it done…they are too nice.

Good luck man…I’ll vote for you but I sure as heck will push you to get it all.

I am continually enlightened by Lewbronski’s posts.

I try, seriously I do. I get the same hemming and hawing. One guy got all upset saying this place is better than his previous job at MESA so he is happy right where we are. That went sideways.

Honestly I applaud Lew trying to get the word out. I really do, though I don’t think it will work. Too fractured of a pilot group to get through to enough people to make a difference. SWAPA actually needs just a leader willing to burn the place to the ground. I like Casey but he is still too nice most of the time. He is still trying to play politics and not enough time being the big bad bulldog. A vote of no confidence should have been put in motion on Dec 26 and done in a huge press event. We had ****ed off crew and ****ed off passengers that week, perfect time to have a vote of no confidence go through. Follow that up with daily pressers talking about the continuing problems with WN management. Then a SAV sometime in Spring when the next screw up occurs. Full pressure all the time and when they are on the ground step on their throat and choke them out.

Damage the brand and things will change. Or let them damage the brand and stop helping to fix stuff, things will also change.

$66,000 is the max the employer can put in. Employee $22,500 plus over 50 catch up. Plus $13,000 backdoor Roth on top.

That number can’t change no matter who you work for. What CAN and should change is the contribution % so you can max out quicker so you can get the excess in cash.

didn't one guy do that and either got fired or is being sued?

Thanks for the applause. FWIW, I'm under no illusion that it'll work either. I keep hoping that the little educational sparks I'm throwing out will land somewhere and start a fire with a critical mass of our guys who will then, in turn, do their own research and call SWAPA out on their failure to aggressively execute an effective RLA strategy. But, alas, that has not yet happened and likely, will not happen.

It boggles my mind that seemingly 99%+ of career professional airline pilots in our pilot group will spend countless hours researching the ins and outs of the BGE, Mazda Miatas, corporate DEI policy, and red dot sights for their 9mm, but will not spend anywhere close to the same amount of time learning about the factors that directly impact their lifetime earning potential and quality of life for both themselves and their families.

But the clear truth is they simply don't take the time nor spend the energy. They prefer to be spoon-fed the same old myths from people who have done as little research as they have. And so the cycle will likely continue: lagging contract after lagging contract after lagging contract.

And along with our lagging contracts, our "exceptional" way of life will carry on deteriorating: work yourself to exhaustion flying 4- and 5-leg days in the guppy flying more block hours and longer duty days than nearly any other group of airline pilots, spending about half of your shorter and shorter overnights in generally sh**ty hotels, and "only" picking up a couple of extra two-days per month, all so that you can brag to your OAL buddies how your W-2 is slightly bigger than some of their W-2's, while hoping that you don't go out on disability and get tossed to the curb by the company that luvs you.

Real RLA education should have started in early 2017. It hasn't started yet. Mediation should have been filed at least a year earlier than it was filed. A SAV should have been conducted in early 2022. It hasn't been conducted yet. All the steps you listed should have been accomplished (except the SAV should have happened in early 2022 vs Spring 2023).

100% agree with your assessment of Casey. He has wasted, perhaps irretrievably, too much time *****-footing around trying to manage the company for the company instead of executing a forceful organized labor strategy that will yield an industry-leading contract. Remember, he has a lot of "SWAPA 1.0" DNA in him. I think that DNA is clearly expressing itself in the many wasted opportunities he has allowed to come to nothing.

I started listening to the YouTube video SWAPA just put out ("Your SWAPA Execs Discuss SAV, Pickets, and What's to Come.") It was painful and cringe-inducing. I had to stop listening after the 8:50 mark, though, when Casey explained, "...our pilots are extremely educated." That's just obviously false. I want to be charitable, but him saying that is the product of being deeply out of touch, wishful thinking, or worse.

For SWAPA to have bungled the RLA steps this much so far and to claim that "our pilots are extremely educated," I have to suspect that they don't even really understand the RLA themselves. They don't seem to have wrapped their minds around the idea that the most effective weapon that labor has access to is the credible threat of a strike. Instead, they seem to think that pickets and trying to teach the company how to run scheduling are more effective approaches than what nearly 100 years of RLA history have taught us. How novel. What a good idea.

Well stated. I agree completely. That was a very well researched and thought out post.

United continues contributing past the above mentioned number but into an active healthcare and further into a healthcare retirement account (VEBA). This allows your money to go in tax free and grow and be withdrawn tax free when in retirement. The “active” pays your medical premiums and (via a spending account debit card) out of pocket healthcare costs right now. Better in my opinion than having the excess paid out and taxed as normal wages.

Unfortunately it’s actually not really your money though… it’s like a pool of company money where an allotment is used to pay allowable bills in your name. You have no control over where or how the money is invested and once you and your spouse die any unused money cannot be passed on as part of an estate. Any unused portion of the money allotted to you gets returned to the pool.

It’s better than the DC stopping once someone hits the cap, but personally I’d rather a cash over cap payment to my bank account for me to do what I see fit.

Can you think of an event that caused worse damage to the brand than this meltdown?

Agree with you that LTD needs to be improved at SWA.

Regarding the retirement contribution, you realize that all the other pilot groups are asking for increases right? So it’s irrelevant if SWA bumps it up to 16% because Delta and others are aiming much higher. SWA will be industry lagging again unless the retirement contribution is increased significantly.

Absolutely the LTD needs to be fixed. I agree with ZAP. This is my line as well.
One doesn't think about LTD til they NEED LTD.

Also the sick pay needs to be harvestable in some form of cash.
Newbies: first red flag is a capt with 1600 firm in their bank. Not a smoking gun, but throw in a smoking jacket(blazer), flag tie and hat.....guilty til proven innocent.

You owe me a coffee. I am still laughing. :)

1600 sick trips means one thing: they flew numerous times when they shouldn’t have. IM SAFE. This isn’t a mission.

poopoo out

Yup. “It’s just allergies.”

”It’s not just allergies! You’re bleeding from your eyes, you just shat yourself, and that thing you coughed up is climbing the circuit breaker panel!”

"Oh no... it's still an allergy, but the variant is called omicrodeltaEIEIO. Don't worry, it's not contagious or anything."

Lol….filler

I DONT GET IT.

WHY WHY WHY would you give nearly 400K back to the company??

Are these the same guys that single engine, or delay APU and whatever other weird ism because "My PrOfIt ShArinG!"?

Yes they are.

It is much more than 1600 TFP or ( 400k) they give up. We are talking about 30-45 years and sick time bank caps out at 1600 TFP .

Yeah of course. 16 percent will be lagging by the time it's our turn in the barrel. I would not accept it nor would I expect anyone else to. We should be industry standard in the retirement department, whatever that new standard is.

You're right, its that, plus the 15 percent NEC and while we are at it, PS if we ever make a profit again.