Wait, what?
 

Casually mentioned by a BOD rep OTOF is the fact that our three SWAPA executives (President, VP, and Second VP) all had dinner recently with BoJo and A-Watt.

Huh? What the fudge? Come again?

Is this a gateway to salmon fishing trips to Alaska?

Was this an opportunity to work some good ol’ boy Texas magic on our SWAPA leadership?

Is it simply a coincidence that this dinner occurred and then SWAPA is talking about “A Shift”?

The smoke signals (another example: how very little our SWAPA execs and committee members have flown over the last many years) coming out of Empire Central are not looking promising. They’re looking industry-lagging - again.

As far as the dinner goes, I think you’re reading too much into it. It’s yet another way to express in detail the frustration of our pilots and the disaster that is our operation without the middle managers and Carl getting in the way of direct and honest communication between our top leaders and the company’s.

As for the history of fishing trip handshakes at SWA……I’m well aware of it and not too concerned about it (yet).

IMO, the evidence is mounting that this SWAPA does not truly intend to deliver us an industry-leading contract. Ever since I’ve been here, the mantra has been to “Trust SWAPA.” In each case, the evidence was later discovered that SWAPA should never have been trusted.

“Trust SWAPA, trust SWAPA, trust SWAPA,” until it’s too late and the next six- to ten-year industry-lagging contract is hung around our necks. It has happened every time, including the 2016 Weaks Special that we’re currently hating (and for which our current Prez was NC Chair).

Ignore the smoke signals at your own (and our own) peril. History has taught us that it hasn’t been a good move to do so. But I guess we’re gonna need to slam our head into the wall a couple or three more times before we might learn.

When Casey AIP’s this contract and tells everyone, “Best we could do,” it’s gonna be too late to realize we were all sold a bill of goods for the last several years about C2020.

Look at CMs past work. I’ve been very underwhelmed by him.

Lew, this meeting is a good thing. It wasn’t until after swapa met with GK and the execs in 2016 that we started to see movement on that contract. That meeting exposed Babbit and Russel as the irrational obstructionists they were and cast a light on their misleading communications to both the pilot group and upper management. It also cast swapa in a very positive light as they had a more thorough picture on the company finances than most of the VP’s and they were invited back to several more meetings with the CFO that showed swapa’s asks were both reasonable AND affordable.

Casey has also demanded that swapa (and by extension the schedule research cmtee) be included in the discussions on the meltdown. This is NOT the same as TD, CK, and a few others going around swapa to tell the company the minimum the pilot group would accept on a potential TA as happened last contract cycle.

Now, if Casey and the swapa VP’s are having dinner with Bob on a weekly basis, meeting outside of the office, meeting outside business hours, going on golfing outings, hunting trips, traveling to destination spots etc. I’ll be first in line to call foul. Right now though there are lots of reasons they should be talking.

That “movement” in 2016 you speak of after SWAPA met with GK ended up resulting in the current near industry-bottom turd we’re operating under. But 84% of our guys were fine with it at the time because, “If it’s good enough for Jon Weaks and SWAPA, it’s good enough for me.”

I s’pose the only thing different about the refrain we’ll be hearing this time around will be, “If it’s good enough for Casey Murray and SWAPA, it’s good enough for me.”

Maybe we’ll learn in three or four decades.

Lew

Look how many cannot be bothered to wear a lanyard, we are beyond being a last tier airline .

It wasn't industry bottom when it was ratified. Our work rules are still near the top of the industry. Pay is lagging now , but everyone else ratified after we did. This go around, everyone else ratified before us so if we vote in lagging rates....it's on us. I was new in 2016 and didn't know our disability was as bad as it is....it was better than the regional I came from (we didn't have any) and nobody bothered to tell me otherwise. This go around, they're gonna have to pay up if they want my vote and to keep butts in seats.

I'd rather be here than most any other place. Until your CP calls you and tells you to unring a fatigue call and finish what scheduling told you to do....don't give me that BS about last tier airline. People are frustrated and ****ed and rightfully so....but you're insane if you think we're a bottom feeding airline.

Seek help!!!!!! By all of your posts it is evident that you are past the point of no return. Anonymous posts are awesome, but I hope someone checks on you!! Make sure you open the garage door after you start your car tomorrow.

Worse yet, at least half of those that I fly with are not engaged or informed. They’re in La La Land. You’d think they worked for a different company in a different profession. It’s not frustrating, it’s downright MADDENING!

Agreed. And that’s coming from me, fwiw.

We signed it knowing we would be below the others rates. DAL came out two weeks after us. Our voting was open still. BS they didn’t know our benefits ie disability lagged. Plenty were talking about it. Many were vocal about it. That’s the main reason I was a No TA2. Many just saw rates and boneus checks and yessied it.

It’s about so much more than rates.

And it’s also about the ability to achieve a truly industry-leading contract - not just an industry-leading narrow body contract. We have the leverage available to us if we want to use it to achieve the best pilot contract in the world, bar none and without caveats like “narrow body” or “LCC” or “passenger airline.”

The SWAPA execs and important committee members will have the exact same SWAPA gravy train to ride for themselves as long as they want to regardless of what we ratify.

Really, for Casey and the SWAPA execs and committee people, they’re more like in the position of the mediator than actually trying to get the best possible contract. If they get an agreement, any agreement, that has a few flashy improvements and no Tumi bag attached to it, they win because it will pass as long as they say “best we can do.” At that point, their job is done and their SWAPA gravy train is secured for the rest of their careers. They will look like heroes just like Weaks did for quite a while after the current contract was ratified and before people realized how lacking it is.

In that way, the SWAPA execs and committee guys are in a position kind of similar to the mediator’s of just wanting to get an agreement, any agreement, signed.

Lots of signals have been coming out out that those of us who want an industry leading contract are going to be disappointed. Obviously, I hope I’m wrong, but…

I don’t disagree. Since the vast majority of airlines, legacy to regionals will have new contracts before we get a TA, I’ll be looking for a comparison similar to what we got in 2019 to compare vs OAL’s. If it’s concessionary, I’ll vote to send it back. If it meets or exceeds everything I’m wanting, I’ll vote yes. Definitely not looking just at rates…

Don’t expect to much. Remember it is like squeezing a balloon, or cutting a piece of pie . We have psychic wages, SWA pilots need to decide what they are willing to give up, if they want anything new or extra on the contract .

You sure seem to be working against the union and membership unity leading up to our extremely important Strike Authorization Vote.

Being an open critic of his Union, independent thinker

Vs

SWAPA Thinks For Me, mindlessly stamps Yes in everything the Union does

Which group of 10k pilots you want to be a part of depends .

On SAV day, group 2 for sure

But to get to that point, you must encourage independent critical thought.

Everyone at swapa who touched a contract should be required to return to the line for a given period afterward. Make them fly their agreement for xx years.

If it’s truly the best, then they should be happy to.

Congratulations, you have completely missed the point.



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Please, profess your wisdom, and tell us all how to vote.

If you’re familiar at all with what I’ve posted here, you’d know that I’m all in favor of the SAV, and then pushing toward a release.

Eye on the prize. Our goal is not to obtain a successful SAV and then fold, like Alaska and Delta, did without obtaining the best contract possible.

Our goal ought to be the best possible contract for the pilots of SWAPA given the leverage that’s available to us right now. The leverage that’s available to us right now could allow us to obtain the world’s best airline pilot contract, bar none.

It seems that SWAPA may be willing to stop far, far short of what we’re capable of obtaining. They’ll say or imply something like, “Best we could do. We promise.” And then, because (apparently) people like you will mindlessly reply, “SWAPA speaks for me. I’m voting yes,” we’ll all be working under something delivering far less compensation and far less quality of life for close to the next decade than we could have obtained.

The goal is to wake people like you up to what we’re capable of. What we’re capable of is not simply a successful SAV. We’re capable of much, much more.

Are you saying you’re willing to give up far short of where we could actually go? That doesn’t sound to me like that’s looking out for the best interests of the pilot group.

Lew, I appreciate the info you have been putting out on RLA and your push for a world wide top airline contract. You keep saying there are signals and signs and info coming out that we are probably going to be disappointed because SWAPA is probably going to stoop short of the best we can get. Can you be more specific about these signs and signals for us that weren’t around for the last contract negotiations?

I also appreciate the education pieces and have found them very valuable.

Lew is a cynic, and I don’t mean that in a negative way. You need cynics in this world and especially in this industry. Casey put out that he and the VPs had dinner with Bob and two of his minions. I don’t think there was any effort to hide that fact at all. It was framed as swapa communicating directly with the CEO on how they are being stonewalled by labor relations. I think that meeting is exactly what is supposed to happen and could be invaluable in speeding up this ridiculously long process. FWIW, all the comms coming from the CEO, COO, and flight ops is that they want the contract done, they understand they are going to pay market rates, etc etc. This is 180 out from the Gary and Mike show last contract when we were told we needed to do our part to keep costs low to preserve 15 percent ROIC, which as everyone knows is the key to getting into heaven for dead accountants.

So now is Bob Jordan’s chance to prove he is a man of his word. The message has been sent with no filter. Will he deliver? I don’t know, but I do know there is no excuse for him not to.

As far as industry lagging and being second tier, we all have a vote. I know what my lines in the sand are and they are sacred. It helps me make an unemotional decision. I also know that buried in the language may be something that I don’t particularly like. If it is enough to make me vote no, then I’ll do it. I don't care. No votes at this airline have typically resulted in a quick TA2 with big improvements. We also have the fortunate history of paying our retirees the retro they are owed, so our elder pilots have no reason to vote yes for a turd.

Hold the line, don’t be afraid to vote no, and absolutely hold swapas feet to the fire. We will get there, it is just going to take some time.

yeah, I’m not seeing them either. Even high level diplomats communicate during times of war…

Concisely and quickly, because I don’t have time to write a lengthy explanation. And, I’m pretty sure I’ve addressed each of these points in detail before;

1. Our long history of SWAPA 1.0 selling us out. We like to think that “this SWAPA” Is “SWAPA 2.0,” and therefore somewhat invulnerable to the same human motivations that corrupted SWAPA in earlier years. “SWAPA 2.0” still has a lot of SWAPA 1.0 DNA in it. Just do some research.
2. The fact that many of the same people who signed a letter swearing they wouldn’t settle for less than Platform and then settled for >$1B less than Platform are now handling this set of negotiations. That exact same dynamic came into play with the recent gratitude MOU. Casey said we wouldn’t sign any more MOU’s unless they were tied to C2020 improvements. The gratitude MOU wasn’t. The willingness to compromise our stated principle at the sight of some loose change is clearly still alive and well. That’s highly concerning.
3. The lack of real RLA education for years now. Why? There’s no real explanation besides rationalizations as lame as what some of the early ELITT’ing BOD reps provided last week. Why do I, some random line pilot, understand the RLA better than anyone I have heard from SWAPA who has written about it or discussed it? That’s sad. It’s not like I’m smarter or better than people in SWAPA. Something has to be able to explain that. The RLA isn’t rocket science. What explains it? They could understand it if they wanted to. Anyone could.
4. The delayed filing for mediation. We waited ~30 mo’s to file for mediation from the opening of negotiations. Even given the pandemic beginning coincidentally at the same time as negotiations opening in Mar 2020, we still waited far too long to file for mediation - like ~ a year longer than necessary. Waiting longer than is necessary to file for mediation is like waving a giant red flag, signaling to management and FH that we don’t understand the RLA and we’re afraid to use the leverage it provides.
5. The delayed SAV. Hand-in-hand with e delayed filing for mediation has come a delayed SAV, also by about a year.
6. The apparent unwillingness to shoot for anything more than, at best, industry leading narrow body contractual features. And from what I’ve heard, we’re not even truly aiming for that. Don’t know if that’s true, but regardless the failure to shoot for a true industry leading contract, period, I believe, stems from a deep lack of understanding of the RLA’s requirement to “exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements” and the duty to bargain “in good faith” that arises from that. Nothing about the RLA requires us to base our demands on what is perceived as industry standard nor narrow body nor anything else like that. The courts have repeatedly said that, essentially, whichever side has more economic leverage, as long as they show up and are open to hearing the other side’s POV, is what determines who prevails in a RLA bargaining environment. I don’t see ANY indication that SWAPA understands that. We have the leverage to demand way more than “market rates” and an industry leading narrow body contract.
7. The delayed response to the BOD rep ELITT situation. Not a huge deal in the big scheme of things, but it’s very recent and a small example of SWAPA seeming to want to bury their heads in the sand and not address something that ****ed off quite a few people. Apparently, Casey said something on FB yesterday. Maybe he has said something today. Regardless, waiting as long as he did kinda defies, at least, my comprehension. What’s concerning is the seeming allegiance to the “bro code” of the “band of brothers” that SWAPA seems to perceive itself as, over and above, something that was generating lots of anger among at least some of our pilots. Some folks have been asking about a code of ethics within SWAPA. It seems like they do have one: an unpublished bro code that demands a wagon-circling response versus being proactively upfront with the pilot group.
8. And now, the latest: the dinner with BoJo and AWatt. I found out about it via a casual mention OTOF from a BOD rep, not from any sort of official announcement before the fact. Harmless? Maybe. But, given the history around here, I’m skeptical. Also, like I said, interesting that the “A Shift” announcement came out shortly after the dinner.

Im sure I’ll think of more but that’s just kind of a stream of consciousness account of my thoughts. In short, I’m concerned.

You appear to be transmit only. I have already said I like your previous stuff.

But you keep criticizing the union at every turn.

Dismissing myself and others as “people like you” seems to indicate you can’t fathom anyone who disagrees with you.

What I’m saying is that the union has taken the unprecedented step of calling a Strike Authorization Vote. Yet in this moment, you are working against the Union. Alleging secret meetings, spreading conspiracy theories, and FUD about secret signals.

If there was any truth to your insinuations, then of course concerned members have every right to call the union’s actions into question.

But there is no proof, no bad actions, no nothing. When the union needs everyone to be unified against the company, you keep criticizing the union.

Let’s all work together for a successful SAV and then go from there. We need to keep working on the senior bubbas to wear lanyards, support the union, and vote YES for a strike.

We need as much leverage as possible and leverage comes through unity.


.

Where does Unity come from, and how is it built?

Rick James and five fingers talking to the face, I think.

https://i.imgflip.com/2pqyh0.jpg

It is NOT built through constantly criticizing the efforts of the union to achieve a resounding SAV yes percentage.

Are you working towards that goal? Or against it?


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Hyperbole. Buy you’re free to believe what you want.

I personally don’t think that logically follows but if that’s what you want to use as a rhetorical device, have at it.

I haven’t alleged secret meetings nor secret signals. That sounds like a straw man argument to paint me as some sort of conspiracy theorist. In a nutshell, I’ve said that the signs I’m seeing coming from SWAPA aren’t encouraging.

Sorry you see it that way. I don’t necessarily think SWAPA is intentionally doing anything nefarious. Much more likely to me is that, like the company’s highly ingrained and insular culture that led to the meltdown, SWAPA can also fall prey to the legacy of the culture from which it has evolved. We all know what that culture is: we colloquially call it “SWAPA 1.0.”

The best pilot contract we can obtain does require unity. You’re right about that.

But it very much matters what we’re unified around. If we’re more unified around the idea of blindly pledging allegiance to a SWAPA that does not seem to be aiming for the best possible contract we can obtain, then we will end up doing what we did last time: an 84% vote in favor of the near industry-bottom contract we work under right now because, as was said over and over at the time, “If it’s good enough for Jon and SWAPA. It’s good enough for me.”

Yes, we definitely need to be unified around a successful SAV. But the best possible contract will require going much further than a successful SAV. That’s what we need to be unified around.

Our strongest leverage, and labor experts across the decades agree on this, comes in the form of the credible threat of a legal strike. We need to be unified around the commitment to using that threat (and possibly actually employing it) to deliver the world’s best airline pilot contract to our pilot group.

I don’t always agree with Lew but he/she is well spoken and is always full of some thought provoking ideas. Just because he is asking questions and bringing up an interesting viewpoint on SWAPA doesn’t mean he is not for a unified front.

I personally don’t think it’s an all or nothing situation. I feel SWAPA is absolutely feckless, they are weak and they are afraid of going too far. They are there more for their own biding and have forgotten what a line swine like myself goes through. Just because I feel that way doesn’t change my support for them or a SAV, when and if that comes around. I believe I should hold them accountable and should ask hard questions to SWAPA and demand honest answers. Once again that does not change my unity toward SWAPA. You don’t have to be so binary in your thoughts and ideas. SWAPA and myself have a combined enemy so naturally we will bind over that.

Yes, but if that is your goal (I know it is mine) it seems strange that you are a non stop agitator AGAINST the union.

If I’m an “agitator” at all, I’m an agitator for an informed pilot group, especially a pilot group with deep knowledge of the RLA, and for this pilot group ending up with the world’s leading airline pilot contract without any asterisks, like “narrow body.”

You perceive that as “strange.” Okay.

We have the ability to set the bar for all of other airlines in the world to follow this contract cycle. Is that not something you’re interested in? The world’s best airline pilot career compensation, retirement, work rules, disability, and other benefits are all within our reach.

Not appealing to you?

It is to me.

I find it strange that you’re apparently not interested in finding out if we’re truly not going for that this contract cycle and, if not, why not? We may or may not again have a confluence of factors this favorable to laying hold of demands previous generations of airline pilots may have called “outrageous.” But we have those factors working in our favor RIGHT NOW.

But you’d rather allow the opportunity to slip away out of fear of offending SWAPA and other members like yourself who can’t seem to stand rigorous discourse and differing opinions?

Aren’t you interested in knowing if SWAPA intends to deliver the world’s best airline contract?

If that’s not their intent, wouldn’t you like the opportunity to provide them with the feedback to know that the membership wants more than what, for example, Delta and Alaska settled for so that they can adjust course before any more time goes by?

I do find it a little funny that we have no problem on APC calling out posters as F&H insurgents sent in to sow discord and disunity within the group…and then go out of our way to sow our own discord and disunity.

Maintaining outward support for the union and having internal reservations about what it’s doing aren’t mutually exclusive concepts. Haven’t personally heard anyone try to claim that you must blindly accept everything that comes from SWAPA, but not sure you’ll be able to cure whatever it is that’s giving you the heebee jeebies by putting them on public blast. If anything, seems to me to serve CK’s interests if he ever wants to make a case to the Bobs that he’s on the right negotiating path and our support for the union is faltering.

Keep that stuff in the cockpit, with the actual BoD or bare minimum leave it OTOF. As far as prying eyes can tell SWAPA does our negotiating, we support its efforts, we look forward to seeing what it produces and then will decide if it meets our high standards. Otherwise fight club man.

There you go again, accusing SWAPA of selling us short. You are tireless in your work AGAINST the union.

Do you have any proof of what you are saying?

LOL... Seriously?

The proof is in every industry lagging contract we've been sold and voted "YES!" for in the last 3 decades, including our current one sold to us by SWAPA 2.0.

Every single gripe the pilot group has could've/should've been fixed in past contracts.

That said, the last (current) one did, surprisingly, fix a few things in the pilot's favor, which was a major paradigm shift around here. With the exception of our 2002 extension, prior to that we pretty much gave the company whatever it wanted, with maybe a pittance "raise" here and there.

I agree with Lew that the signs coming from SWAPA are not pointing to an industry leading contract.

I am guessing that polling results are driving some of this, because there is still a shocking amount of Kool Aid circulating around amongst the pilot group, and, ultimately, SWAPA is responsible for representing all of us.

Never underestimate your peers willingness to sell themselves, and you, short around here.

You are going to let stuff that happened 30 years ago make you bag on what the union is doing now?

Most of those reps are probably dead by now. Damn, talk about holding a grudge.


as for me I’ll be voting YES on SAV…..and pushing for the most leverage


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The more things change the more they stay the same.

Apparently, reading comprehension is not your strong point.

Some things never change around here, which is why we're doomed to industry lagging contracts, which has been proven, time and again, to be exactly what most folks here want.