The average line credit for all bases in July is 98.82 at SWA. What is the average line credit at AirTran in July? If that has gone down, what would your best guess be of average line credit have been pre-acquisition? That seems like it would be an accurate estimate of the average take home pay. I'm not trying to say that an AT CA will make more as an SWA FO, because I doubt that they will, but I speculate that they are at least in the same ballpark.

No idea. I would have to do the math manually, because the company stopped publishing that number with the new CBA because we got rid of the line value index (complicated concept related to construction of build-up lines). Line values did drop significantly beginning this year with the loss of our flying to the SWA side of the partition, so line values definitely aren't what they used to be. I would guess the average on the 717 this month is in the 82-85 hour range.

Closer to high-80s.

Not really. How many pilots do you know who only fly their original line? I don't know too many. Even I don't do that, and I'm pretty damned lazy.

Actually, I have. Several times. I used a VERY conservative 100 trips a month as what a typical SWA FO can reasonably expect to fly without doing anythging more than flying his/her line. I have used the term "average" a couple times, which I shouldn't have. "Average" is a mathmatical term, and what I meant was/is "typical." I believe the "average" SWA pilot is paid closer to 110 trips/month.

Because nobody would tell how many hours a "typical" ATN CA flies in a month. Other people have tried to compare guarantee to guarantee or big time flyer to big time flyer. I think the most valid comparison is to compare a "typical" ATN CA to a similar SWA FO, at the same longevity, working the same number of days. The ATN folks have been deafeningly silent on how what a typical ATN line looks like.

OK. I can work with these numbers...

"Closer to the high 80s." I'll use 87.5--halfway between 85 and 90.

7 year ATN CA: $151 x 87.5 = $13,212
7 Year SWA FO: $125 x 100 = $12,500 (-$1,212) To "break even," the SWA FO will have to work 106 trips, at 6.5 trips per day, that's 16-17 days a month.

12 yr ATN CA: $165 x 87.5 =$14,437
12 Yr SWA FO: $ 132 x 100 = $13,200 (-$1,237) To "break even," the SWA FO will have to work 110 trips, or 17 days a month.

To complete the comparison, we will have to know how many days a month the ATN CA has to work in order to credit 87.5 hours.

Using July's lines, an ATN 717 CA would need to work only 15 days to credit 87.5 hours flying nothing more than his original line. By swapping around for more efficient trips and getting some premium pay, that could be reduced.

I am working 14 days for 115 tfp. I am not sr and I am not a player just a line guy that uses ELITT to my advantage.

I'm talking just regular lines as published, not ELITT. We have a two-stage SAP process which is basically our version of ELITT (without so many restrictions), but I'm not counting what you can do in that.

A 12 year SWA FO is so senior that he can easily out do the average. A little knowledge of the system and some open time seniority can make that 160tfp on 15 days.

Anyone with that kind of seniority can get all turns and 2 days on the original bid, give it all away and make his/her sched from scratch out of giveaway and open time.

The 6.5/day is the minimum trips can average, so the 16 days is a worst case scenario. I was trying be conservative. A typical trip density pays around 7.5/day. (some up around 8.5/day, and a few down around 6.7/day) I was trying to be generic, but here's what the July SWA FO lines look like:

Work 11 days: 90-95 trips (only a few of these)
Work 12 days: 89-100 trips
Work 13 days: 90-107 trips
Work 14 days: 94-110 trips
Work 15 days: 99-112 trips

To visualize the distribution: The 12 day pairings trend toward the low 90s , while the 15 day pairings trend towrd the upper end, 108-109. (Only a few 15 day pairings pay 99-100, while only a few 12 day pairings pay 98-99 or more.) 13s cluster around 98-100 and 14s around 103-105.

So, in July, to reach the breakeven 106-110 trips, the SWA FO will have to bid a line working 13-14 days.

A 12-year captain will be a senior FO, and can bid the line of their choosing. A junior 7-year ATN CA will be a mid level FO, and will be able to hold a 106 trip line, but may have to work either Saturday or Sunday, but probably not both, or move up to a 15 day line.

I'm 29 out of 45 on the 717 in MCO.

In May, I worked and swapped as much as I could and wound up with 115 hours credit and 13 days off.

In June, I slacked (vacation) got 88 hours and 17 days off.

I guarantee you that even a bottom 15%er FO like me could get better than 135tfp in a 31 day month with 13 days off. No open time or anything, just giveaway and ELITT.

My only problem would be keeping my block under 30/7 and 100/30.

I never want to work that much though. I'm a 12-13 days of work kind of guy and work 95-105tfp.

I've seen low seniority FO's who want to work AVERAGE over 160tfp by bidding reserve and then picking up everything they can in between. Usually works out to 20 days a month but they're averaging over $17000/mo.

Allow me to ask you how senior you think a 12 & 7 yr AT Cpt will be on the SWA F/O side?

WM,

According to the ISL, a 12yr CA is in the top 10% of every SWA domicile as an FO. 7yr is in the top 33% of most with the exception of LUV and perhaps HOU.

Not exactly. Are you using myseniority.com? That's what I'm using and was sure to take out the 300 or so SW F/Os that will be upgrading as the 737s go over (thanks to about 300 AT B737 Cptns. losing their seat). You're welcome, boys.

Without divulging too much detail, I'm very close to being in between the 12 and 7 yr Cptn mark and fall right at a third from the top of the F/O list in OAK and LAS (the most junior bases), less than half in DAL, and halfway down in MDW and BWI.

So in essence, I'm going from a not so junior Cptn. to a not so senior F/O. Lovely.

Whackmaster, you'll never be happy.

Would you be happy with that? :)

I guess you just can't deal with facts supported by numbers in this case, huh? Great comeback :rolleyes:

You're actually expecting me to be happy about going from a fairly senior Cptn. in my current base to a mid-level F/O in my new base? Are you friggin' kidding me?

Since I don't know, and don't want to know your employee number, I can't check your facts. But it seems to me that what MathewAMEL said based on the ISL was correct.

I also know from your previous characterizations and generalizations that I don't believe anything you say at face value.:p

I'm pretty sure you're both senior and younger than me though. That should make you happy.:D

BTW: I had a great time on the beach. You should try it.:)

whackmaster for your sake and the sake of your family let go of the bitterness,the anger,go find a grass strip, find a Cub ,or a Champ, and rediscover the whys and hows of your chosen path, it is good therapy,i highly recommend it, may you regain your 4 stripes soon.

Huh? I don't know about you, but I'd say most of us do this job for the money.

I'm sure all the airline CEOs would like us to correlate our jobs somehow to tooling around in a bugsmasher, though. Sorry, not me.

Thank you, that's good advice.........for someone who doesn't have any hobbies or has a bad home life. I qualify for neither description. Let's not mix my disgust with what just happened to my pilot group and my personal/home life, mmmmkay?

First of all, my statements above were made based on FACTUAL numbers from myseniority.com. Sorry if they don't fit the story that you're selling. Call me a liar all you want, but the numbers bear out the facts of the situation.

Nothing against MatthewAMEL, but he might not have checked myseniority.com. He's rather junior and isn't part of the group that lost the most seniority in this deal.

Since we're hurling insults and calling the other a liar, I'm going to take a wild guess that this is your first "airline rodeo". Fresh out of a single seat fighter and now a junior F/O at SWA. Did I get that just about right? No wonder you have no clue about how bad a 30% plus loss of relative seniority is.

What I find ironic and insulting in all of this is being told to "get over it" by the very people who's union along with SWA management orchestrated this seniority grab. WE HAVEN'T EVEN STARTED TO HAVE TO LIVE WITH OUR HIT IN SENIORITY AND YET YOU WANT US TO "GET OVER IT"?

Keep laughing and trying to make the situation light-hearted. Just know that I'm a firm believer of "He who laughs last laughs best", and I'm not the only one......trust me on that.

WM,

You're right. I used the ISL and general position on the list.

Using myseniority.com, the 12yr guy is no worse than 15% in any domicile (BWI).

However, the 7yr is essentially the same as me (2/2008) in the 90s in every domicile.

As far as my hire date is concerned, when I cross the fence, I am a new hire, just not on probation.

Holy smokes!! That myseniority.com website is really depressing! Being 44 and a relatively new SWA pilot, assuming little to no growth my seniority is basically going to suck the whole remainder of my career. It is very likely I will never sit in the left seat in a SWA jet. Commuting to reserve at 63 years of age is simply NOT going to happen.

So WhahhMaster, take comfort and joy knowing there are pilots at SWA who have it much worse than you.

But guess what? I still come to work with a smile on my face. The day this career is no longer enjoyable, is the day I will go do something else. Life is too short.

I work to live, I don't live to work.

WahMaster.

There's nothing you can do about it now. You can continue to complain to all comers and it ain't going to make one iota of difference.

If you've been to so many rodeo's, cowboy, how is it that you never saw this as a possibility? Right now I can't name a single airline pilot younger than 45 who's career has worked out the way they thought. I wish I had a dime for my buds at United and American who are just hoping to have a job.

If you think I don't have perspective on the airline industry, consider that I could have joined your rodeo circuit back in '95 and decided to stay in the USAF. There's a lot of pilots in my family from all paths. I made that decision because I already knew that the airlines are a crap-shoot pyramid-scheme fraught with exactly the kind of risk that seems to have befallen your AT demographic.

Didn't they tell you that at Riddle? Or did their brochure tell you that you had a clear path to Captain with no chance of bankruptcy, merger, buyout, furlough, seniority integration, strike, or anything else that's happened to almost every single airline pilot over the last 20 years?

You can try to cause as much trouble as possible when you cross the fence but it's only going to hurt you in the end. Your "who laughs last" euphemism all about kharma. I think you need to make some deposits in the good-kharma account.

You need to get over it...just sayin'. Get right with the world or go hire a lawyer or find a new job. For your own good.

JD: good post BUT I think a common fallacy in this discussion is the zero growth factor.

Why is zero a more likely growth percentage than some other number?

Before you think that I'm the "growth fairy", look around the industry. It is rare that things have been this static for so long, and that it's just as likely to be NEGATIVE:eek: number as a positive.

While being an FO at 63 seems bad, consider how bad it would to be furloughed at 50 or 55?

American Airlines had 3-4 year Captains in the early 90's and the CEO was projecting phenomenal growth. Then furloughed unexpectedly for a couple years, then had some slow steady growth, then 9/11. Today, if the company gets the work rules they want, they can probably do their current schedule with 1000 less pilots than they currently have. If you were hired in '90 there, you've maybe been a Capt 2-3 different times and no guarantee you're going to stay one now.

1Seat, I completely agree. I am very, very thankful for my opportunity at SWA. And this truly how I feel about things, every time I go to work.

I want our company to grow as badly as the next employee. That is why every time I show up to go fly I try to provide the best customer service I can. Flying airplanes is only a small part of what I do. Trying to make tomorrow better than today is 100% of what I do.

While I believe the vast majority of SWA pilots and employees feel the same and I do, I know there are some that don't. One in particular on this forum. We all know who that is.

Overall I don't worry about my seniority too much. In about 10 years I will be a fairly senior FO. At least I will get weekends off while I am in my 50's. I will easily and gladly survive in the right seat making $170K per year with zero real liability or responsibility to move that 737 from Point A to Point B. Life could be dramatically worse.

Point your anger at your CEO, Board of Directors and stock holders. The purchaser cannot compel the seller to sell.

This is not my first airline or my first corporate acquisition scenario. In the first one, I was a mid-level manager in a multi national corporation. When we were acquired they eliminated my entire division. I did not get to vote on anything I was simply handed a pink slip that said sorry, thanks for playing. Sure I was angry, but I quickly got over it and moved on with my life. I realized that anger would get me no where because it would change nothing and make me miserable. Life is too short to spend your life worrying about what you have no power to change.

Captain Amwayyyyyy......... :D

Actually, it's First Office Amway. Remember I got a late start on the second career!

Here is the ultimate question that everyone must answer for themselves. Did you get into this business because you love to fly or you love money? If you love to fly you are probably happy when you fly but not necessarily happy with the way your career has worked out.

If, as the Zoso says you are just doing it for the money then I would bet you are disappointed more often than happy.:eek: I personally got into this because I was hooked from the first flight I took. I got the strangest look from the Gunnery Sergeant who recruited me when he wanted to show me the pay I would receive as a 2ndLt. I said I really didn't care right now because it will be better than what I am making now and besides I am going to learn to fly. Enough said.

I have been fortunate in my career choice and the company I ultimately decided to (or they decided I could) work for. I can pretty much say that there has been very few days when I didn't want to go flying.

The Oscar