A Message from SWAPA President
 

Fellow Pilots,

Southwest Airlines just announced they have a tentative agreement with Delta Airlines to sublease the B717 and transition them out of our fleet by the end of 2015. This announcement is one SWAPA has planned for from the original announcement of the purchase of AirTran Airways. Side Letter 10 specifically addressed this possibility and it was discussed throughout the SLI & SL10 process. Management has made no secret the B717 does not meet the Company's long-term fleet plan and if the opportunity were presented, they would be retired from our fleet sooner, rather than later.

This is good news for our pilots for many reasons. First, management has stated there will be no jobs lost in this transition. The 717s will be transferred to Delta and our Classic fleet will be retired at a slower rate to account for the departing 717s. Add to that the availability of NG aircraft on the open market and our manning model will not be affected by this change.

Southwest's agreement with Delta will bring long overdue upgrades for many of our First Officers between now and December 2014 at the expense of Airtran captains. Movement on our seniority list is something we have all been waiting for and this will provide that movement.

The Company has repeatedly said the 717 is a "fine airplane" but doesn't really fit into our system or long-term fleet plans. We have a long history of profitability operating a single fleet type and this agreement allows SWA to continue to operate with that philosophy.

Finally, we believe this will aid the transition and place us in a better position to achieve the stated synergies that exist as a result of the AirTran acquisition. From the beginning, the Company has asserted this acquisition and subsequent integration would put Southwest Airlines in the strategic position to realize growth and increased profitability. SWAPA believes this is one of many initiatives that will help in that endeavor.

While we wait for the deal to become binding, I encourage everyone to stay engaged and if new information is presented, we will forward that along. Thank you for everything you do day-in and day-out.

Fly Safe,


END OF STATEMENT
Disclaimer: Red font provided by me.

I cannot believe he is celebrating the out right stealing of Airtran captain seats. He might be the hero of current SWA FOs but does he understand what he is doing to the culture of his company? He alone will be responsible for the downfall of SWA's culture.

Phred

A Message from SWAPA President
 

Wow. What a dick.

Complete and total B.S.

Your disclaimer should have read: Red font AND COMPLETELY BOGUS TEXT WHICH WAS NOT INCLUDED IN THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE, provided by me.

This is the actual letter with relevant text that was actually in the letter in bold:

22 MAY 2012

A Message from your SWAPA President

Fellow Pilots,



Southwest Airlines just announced they have a tentative agreement with Delta Airlines to sublease the B717 and transition them out of our fleet by the end of 2015. This announcement is one SWAPA has planned for from the original announcement of the purchase of AirTran Airways. Side Letter 10 specifically addressed this possibility and it was discussed throughout the SLI & SL10 process. Management has made no secret the B717 does not meet the Company's long-term fleet plan and if the opportunity were presented, they would be retired from our fleet sooner, rather than later.



This is good news for our pilots for many reasons. First, management has stated there will be no jobs lost in this transition. The 717s will be transferred to Delta and our Classic fleet will be retired at a slower rate to account for the departing 717s. Add to that the availability of NG aircraft on the open market and our manning model will not be affected by this change.



Southwest's agreement with Delta will bring long overdue upgrades for many of our First Officers between now and December 2014. Movement on our seniority list is something we have all been waiting for and this will provide that movement.



The Company has repeatedly said the 717 is a "fine airplane" but doesn't really fit into our system or long-term fleet plans. We have a long history of profitability operating a single fleet type and this agreement allows SWA to continue to operate with that philosophy.



Finally, we believe this will aid the transition and place us in a better position to achieve the stated synergies that exist as a result of the AirTran acquisition. From the beginning, the Company has asserted this acquisition and subsequent integration would put Southwest Airlines in the strategic position to realize growth and increased profitability. SWAPA believes this is one of many initiatives that will help in that endeavor.



While we wait for the deal to become binding, I encourage everyone to stay engaged and if new information is presented, we will forward that along. Thank you for everything you do day-in and day-out.


Fly Safe,

I guess my disclaimer did not make it clear but I will clarify. The words in red were added by me and were NOT part of the original message. I can see how that would've been misunderstood.

It still doesn't change the fact that is a very divisive letter. It does nothing to bring the two groups together. Like I wrote, he is the one to blame for the end of SWA culture.

Phred

Actually, if the SWA culture ends, it'll be my fault, and I don't intend to let that happen. I'm a new hire FO, junior to everyone and damn happy to work with anyone.

Is any of this news to you? Did you miss the parts of the agreement that actually addressed this exact scenario?

*Cross posted from another thread since it is in response to the same message*

Shoelu -

You are correct that the red text was not included in the letter ... it did not have to be, because everyone at SWA knows it is true, just as everyone at Airtran knows it is painfully true.

Having talked about 717's going away during negotiations as a possibility in the event that a buyer could be found does not make it less painful to those AT Captains (not me) who are losing their seats.

Surely you can understand that.

The point is, Steve Chase did not need to include that line in his letter -- everyone already knew it was true. And, he had to know that his letter would be for the consumption of parties outside of SWAPA. Thus, the only real purpose for adding that line was to stick a knife in the side of Airtran Captains ... and twist it.

Just to be clear, I'm not ticked off at the world ... I still go to work every day and do the best job I can, and I will continue to do so when I cross the partition to SWA.

However, it would be nice if our future fellow employees would acknowledge the fact that everyone knows the Airtran guys got hosed out of their seniority (and Captain seats) -- and at least stop throwing it in our faces. No one likes to have that done, it is counter-productive, it is divisive. Nothing positive comes from it, unless you consider "spiking the football" to be productive.

Marvin

don't work for swa but just wondering, are the AT captains from the 717 going to be captains on the 737 for SWA or will they have to be copilots again?

Because of the massive loss in relative seniority by those 717 Cptns, most could not hold 737 Cptn on the SW side. Furthermore, there is a restriction on AirTran pilots bidding SWA 737 Cptn before Jan. 1st, 2015. So to answer your question........they're going back to the right seat.

SWAPA is killing the 'culture'.

Based on the schedule announced yesterday, the only ATN CA's who will remain CA's are the ~215 who are left on the 717 when the last batch transitions in 2015.

Anyone can bid a CA slot after 1/1/2015, but based on the current fleet plan, retirements and zero growth, only about 300 ATN pilots could hold 737 CA.

SWA sent 2 assistant Chief Pilots to ATL to talk to the ATN guys in recurrent and in the crew room about the deal. I give them credit for doing that.

Contrast that move with the letter from Steve Chase and you can clearly see who is responsible for destroying the SWA culture.

Text was not red on my phone. Guess I am the dick.

No, no you had it right the first time.

You live in South Texas?

Let me see if I get this…

SWA is getting rid of the 717. The ATN 717 pilots will transition to the SWA 737 faster than originally thought. A senior SWA FO makes more than an ATN CA*. When they transition from ATN CA to SWA FO they will be toward the top of the SWA FO list-- have a better schedule--and make more money than they did as an ATN CA until Jan 2015, at which point they can upgrade (again) and start making a SWA CA pay—A LOT more money.


* I’ve posted real numbers about this in the past…if you are going to dispute this fact, then show the math.

Prior to the 717 announcement, I was scheduled (via the Transition Bid) to cross the fence in the Fall of 2014. The revised schedule (which keeps 36 717's at ATN through 2015) has me with a SWA ID in late 2015 or early 2016.

According to the SWA CP who spoke to us on Wednesday, the 717 will never operate for SWA (in SWA colors).

The ATN CAs make the same as SWA FOs argument is completely false. Complete information has been provided to Chuck McGill and Mike Van de Ven documenting that ATN CAs will lose about $25k/yr when they transition over.

Lets just stick with published straight rates (no per diem and no international rates) and published time guarantee.

A 10-year ATN CA will be making $170.10/hr on 1/1/13 @ 76 hours = $12,927.60 gross/month.

A 10-year SWA FO will be making $127.43/hr on 1/1/13 @ 89tfp (for a 31-day month) = $11,341.27 gross/month.

That's a straight pay difference in the ATN CA 'favor' of $19,035.96.

If you look at the SLI, you will note that on 1/1/2015, only about 300 ATN guys will have the seniority required to hold 737 CA in any domicile. This assumes the current fleet plan, published retirements and 1% growth.

Matthew,

The average over here is 100 trips/month and 73 hours/month.
You have a transistion schedule that shows you over here later than 12/31/14? If so, I would be very interested in seing that. Would it be possible to show the schedule without names etc?

I understand. The average here is higher, as well. I was just using minimum numbers for both sides to simplify.

I have no doubt there are SWA FOs that make more than some ATN CAs, but 'hour for hour' ATN CAs make more than SWA FOs.

The only published schedule I have is the Transition Bid results. There is no official revised schedule yet since there has been no re-bid. I am in the bottom 500. With 36 717s not scheduled to go to Delta until 2015, I made the assumption (I know, I know) I would be one of the last to go.

We are all on the SWAPA CBA still on 1/1/15.

Okay, thanks.
I thought the company had implied they were going to run you seperately. That wyould not be cool.

What Rolf said. Matthew, you should talk to some of your co-workers six months or so after they've crossed the bridge and ask them how big their pay cut has been. Even if you can't fog a mirror, most months will exceed 89 TFP. If you're willing to put a little work and some savvy into it most pilots (even commuters) can add an extra 15-20 TFP while adding no more than one extra day of work.

Rates seldom tell the whole story. Kinda like some Delta -73 pilots around here thinking their TA will give them "SWA pay" by 2015. ;) (and I wish the TA actually would!)

I understand, really. I average about 105 hours a month here, but I like to fly ($).

My point is, a ATN CA who likes to fly (100+ hrs/mo, premium pay trips, international override) is going to take a cut even if he flies the same high time at SWA as an FO.

My guess is this story got started before we got our new CBA. It may have been true under the old rates. It's certainly not now.

But you are right, we will know more when the 1st batch of guys has been on the line for a few months and can let us know how it works out.

There are a lot of questions about who transitions when as a result of the B717 going to Delta. The union apparently has heard so many people are "angry as hornets" over yet another gut punch from SWA*, that they robo called everyone at home telling them to remain focused on a safe flying operation and not to be distracted in the cockpit by the announcement. In addition, AT ALPA will have people from the Critical Incident Response Program in the crew lounge in the coming days.

In the mean time, it looks like most AirTran FO's will continue to be on the B scale all the way to 1 Jan 2015, another 2.5 years, while they watch the quality of the lines continue to decline. Then they are looking forward to spending the first 20 years at SWA as FO's before they upgrade (if they are lucky enough to have 20 years left). But at least they have the SWA culture to look forward to. :rolleyes:

To recap, you now have an entire airline of 1600 pilots who don't have answers as to when they will transition or what happens to the transition bid. In reality, the SWA ATL base probably disappeared with the announcement and nearly every AirTran pilot will be forced to commute.

*No one thinks the decision to sublease the B717 to Delta is a bad business decision, it's just that the announcement by SWA made no mention of the major, major impact of this decision on the AirTran pilot group. Either GK doesn't realize the scope of the problem or worse, he doesn't care. Even the management types they sent to ATL the day after the announcement admitted they had no answers. They did say that the are realizing that the biggest burden of the merger is being borne by the AirTran pilots. Ya think?

How does accelerating the transition to SWA hurt the FOs? Did the ATN 717 FO go senior or junior on the transistion bid?

Maybe. But making ATN CA pay for that 20 years will take some of the sting out it...

How so? Where has anyone said the operations at ATL will be cut? No doubt, a few SWA pilots will want to be based in ATL and will bump an ATN pilot out. Also, an ATN pilot will want to be based in HOU and force a SWA pilot to commute. Same with BWI, and MCO.

Clipper,

Not being aware of the realities the ATN guys are dealing with is acceptable the 1st time. Continued postings after multiple people have demonstrated otherwise is disingenuous at best, deceptive at worst.

The transition to SWAPA has not been accelerated by the 717 announcement. There will still be 36 717s flying under the ATN brand AFTER the 1/1/2015 date. Before the announcement was made, there were 0. In case you don't understand what that means, there will still be ~450 ATN pilots who have not 'crossed the fence' in 2015.

'Ranking' pay would equal the following:

1 - SWA CA
2- ATN CA
3 - SWA FO
4 - ATN FO

As of today, ALL ATN pilots will be in group 3 when they 'cross the fence'. No one is 'making ATN CA pay' for 20 years.

The announced domiciles for the 717 were ATL and TPA. There are no 737 domiciles at either of those locations. Currently, THERE IS NO ATL BASE. When guys are awarded their Transition Bid, ATL is NOT an option. Unless, of course, you can show me the 737 ATL domicile announcement.

At least you got one thing right: Guys like myself (6 yr 717 FO) are being forced from my equipment and domicile (MCO) with no idea when I will be able to hold it.

It may not have accelerated anything, but come 2015, there will be no fence to cross. We will all be SWA pilots at that time and ALL on the SWA CBA.

"AirTran pilots are covered by the Southwest/SWAPA CBA upon entering training for service as Southwest pilots. AirTran pilots who have not entered training for service as Southwest pilots by January 1, 2015 will be covered by the SWAPA-Southwest CBA on January 1, 2015."

Make sure to tell SWA that. It would be great to skip the 60 days of training in DAL and get my SWA badge automatically on 1/1/15.

Are you saying that's what is going to happen?

SWAPA isn't going to represent 717 pilots flying the 'a'.

I can't tell you what will happen, only what is in the agreement we all voted on. It seems to me that all AT pilots will be on the SWAPA CBA by 2015. What does flying the 'a' mean?

The 717 will never operate for SWA. The SWA CP was in ATL this week and told us in RGS that no 717 will see SWA paint. That's not 2nd hand. I was there.

Steve Chase has said only pilots flying SWA colors will be represented by SWAPA.

Matthew answered most of the questions. Yes, per the agreements we will all be on SWA pay by 1 Jan 2015, but that's a long way off! In the meantime, those of us FO's on the 737 are under the same operating certificate, working for the the same parent company, and doing all the international flying but getting paid significantly less (B scale). AirTran will keep about 30 737's to fly international routes until SWA can get there act together to take over. That may or may not be before 1 Jan 2015 (I certainly hope it is!).

If you were to ask me am I better off today then on May 2nd, 2011 (the day we were "acquired") I would have to say NO, and here's why:

1. My take home pay dropped 10% as of 1 Jan because I now have to contribute to my 401K to get the company match. The match was automatic before. 10% less take home pay now and declining until I transition.
2. Unless they announce an Atlanta 737 base, the entire pilot group will be forced to commute (unless they live in a SWA domicile they can hold after they transition). I thought I was done commuting years ago. (I wouldn't mind moving from the ATL but most of us are underwater on our houses and couldn't sell even if we wanted to).
3. My near term future will have ever decreasing line quality and quantity as airplanes transition, dragging down my QOL and pay even further.
4. The SWA culture, as applied to AirTran pilots by GK and company, has been a HUGE, HUGE disappointment. A "FAIL" of epic proportions.
5. The more we are briefed on how SWA operates (outdated technology, inability to embrace technology in the cockpit, slow to change, etc.) the more worried I've become about the short and long term prospects of SWA.
6. Because of the 717 announcement, the entire transition bid has been invalidated. Many unanswered questions. Hard to plan for your future. More turmoil for the family.
7. I was going to upgrade to captain at AirTran before the "acquistion". Now I will not. Ever. (Unless the retirement age changes to age 80, but I'm not holding my breath, because then I wouldn't make it to 80) :)
8. My QOL will never recover before I have to retire, thanks to the seniority grab facilitated by GK and company. I will most likely be stuck flying weekends the rest of my airline life.

Having said all that, if you were to ask me does my future look brighter in the long term? I sincerely hope the answer to that question is YES. Pay will finally reach parity with SWA FO's when I transition or 1 Jan 2015, whichever comes first. All my friends at SWA are great guys and my interaction with most SWA pilots in the terminals gives me hope that the culture thing has some merit to it on a personal level, even if my faith in the corporate level culture has been destroyed.

Sherpa,

I for one recognize what you have been dealt. I would also say that while this SLI is over, I have been an advocate for having the AT folks pay increased sooner (yesterday would be good). The looks I get when I suggest this are funny. Everyone lives in their own world and many need to think of others.

All that being said, and I am not trying to get into some argument (again), but the first offer had pay and seat protection. I know, I know, it was a POS. So says the great Whack. Perhaps your group and ours voting on the first offer would have been acceptable?:confused:

The Oscar

I also have advocated 717 pay equal to 737 pay from day one. It is good for our future employees which makes it good for us. Any time pay rates are raised it is a positive thing for that group and the industry as a whole. The money was there in the first offer so we know SWA could afford it or they wouldn't have offered it. SWA pilots nor SWAPA control the purse strings, those are solely controlled by management. They offered it once and then were not obliged to offer it again. There is nothing any of us can do to change what was agreed upon at this point.

Smokey,

It's only DALPA that's trying to "sell us" on the idea that we will make as much as SWA with this new TA. I know that your work rules and pay scale allow you to make more in less time than we will make under this TA. DALPA is trying to scare us into the idea that there is no more to be had while DAL management has already stated that productivity improvements will make this cost neutral (I guess we're worth a lot to DAL). Not sure if this will pass (DALPA is putting on a full court press so I'm guessing it will barely pass - say 55-45). It's really sad how far DALPA has fallen in the last 8 years. This is a permanent reset of poor pay and work rules that we will never get back - EVER.

Oscar,

Just an outside observer so no vested interest (but always happy to venture and unsolicited opinion):)

Just working to understand the reasons that SWAPA and SWA aren't doing something to better ease the transition of the former ATN pilots into SWA. It sure seems like SWA and SWAPA are proud of how they protected the current employees with little to no thought that ATN will be approximately 23% of your entire pilot force going forward. While I don't believe any of the pilots will do anything to sabotage their job there is a big difference between coming to work enthusiastic about your work environment and "just doing my job". The letter that started this thread sure seems like a knife in the back to all the former ATN pilots that wasn't really necessary. Even though everyone knew that SWA was going to do everything they could to get rid of the 717 it sure seems over the top the way the SWAPA and SWA are handing the transition.

Good conversation, and good points by all. Just a few thoughts:

1) AirTran guarantee is now 75/76 per 30/31 day month, not 70

2) AirTran monthly block hours per line are decreasing as aircraft go to SWA. Pilots that used to get over 100 hours credit are scavenging to break 80.

3) The "First Offer" (SIA #1 at AirTran, SL9, I think, at SWA) would not have prevented the AAI pilots from losing their seats as the 717's went away. It's time to put that thing to rest.

Regardless, I'm heartened to see that many SWA pilots realize that we haven't really been handed the "winning lottery ticket" that they initially thought we were handed, and also I think that many AAI pilots are realizing that junior SWA pilots' concerns about being adversely impacted are also valid. I also appreciate that many SWA crew have gone out of their way in the airports and crew hotels to to say "Hi" and "Welcome Aboard" etc., as awkward as it can be sometimes. It is definitely appreciated.

For Clipper and the others, my buddy has a 15 plus year history of 97 hours credit per month. That is CREDIT. That is very common among the top 20%. 183 per hour is not the same as 151. It is a pay cut- period.

Won't get into the loss of QOL when they go back to left seat. It is real and it is done. period. over.

The question nobody seems to be willing to answer is how much does a line-flying AirTran captain actually make, and how many days a month does it take to make it? Not a top 20 percent premium flyer (wouldn't a pilot in the top 20 % keep their seat?) Nobody is willing to answer this, why? I suspect folks know the answer, but it doesn't fit the "we got screwed" narrative, so the answer is danced around...

Some folks can make 97 hours credit a month. How many days a month does it take to make that? Many SWA FOs can pull down 140-150 trips per month. They work their butts off and play the premium flying game. I don't include them in a comparison for that reason. Again, what does an average, fly your line ATN captain make? How many days would he/she work? Not the min guarantee, or someone who busts their butt, picks up extra, etc. Just a line flying captain...

Yes, QOL will go down returning to the left seat, but they pay goes WAY up, as well...

I can't speak to how much an average line Captain makes since I am in the right seat. However, you need to understand that not one Airtran Captain will keep his seat. All Captain seats go to SWA pilots until Jan 2015. After 2015, if a Captain seat opens up, then some Airtran Captains may have enough seniority to bid for it.

If SWA has trained enough Captains to fill the existing seats by Jan 2015, then it might be a while before more Captain seats open up since most new aircraft purchases will be replacing 717's and 737 Classics for the foreseeable future.

Nobody has posted it on this forum, just like nobody has posted the average SWA FO income - probably b/c nobody knows for sure. I can't fix your problem with the lack of an AirTran # (I don't know it either), but the SWA #'s are known.

Captain Carl Kuwitzky and SWAPA wrote a packet for AirTran guys about Southwest and SWAPA during the 'courtship' phase. SWAPA #'s about themselves, which I've quoted below, are certainly pretty accurate:

• Industry leading B737 Pay Rates. SWA Captains average
  over $230,000 and First Officers average over $140,000.
• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots averaged 105
  “Trips For Pay” (TFP) per month, or about 1260 TFP per year.
• Approximately the last five years, SWA pilots
  averaged just over 18 days off per month.

The most junior ATN CA on the property has a min guarantee of almost $138K ($151 x 76 hours x 12 months). If this CA can pick up just 2 hours of credit per month, he/she too is "over $140,000".

The most junior ATN CA makes at least as much as the 'average' SWA FO. An "average, fly your line ATN captain" makes more, since this CA has a higher hourly rate, flies a line, and likely enhances their month for some additional pay, just as the average SWA pilot does. Remember, the 'average' ATN CA is around 25% on list @ ATN. Thus, when this 'average' CA becomes a SWA FO, they will almost certainly take a pay cut. In the same way, those ATN CA's who do get back to the left seat at SWA will see a pay raise for the same reasons - the hourly pay rate differences.

Those are the facts, backed up by independently verifiable numbers. Please respect the results.

The pay comparison must be between ATN CA pay and SWA FO with a comparable longevity, not the "average" ATN CA and the "average" SWA FO. We have to look at what that given ATN CA will be paid when he/she moves across.

Once again, lets do the math...

SWA FO: 1260 "trips" a year times $125 (7 year pay--approx longevity of a junior ATN CA) is $157,500

ATN CA: $151 x 76 x 12 = $137,712. 78 hours a month: $141,336

Take it up a 12 year captain at $165: $165 x 78 x12 = $154,440. Still less than the 12 year SWA FO: 1260 trips x $132 = $166,320.

I'm not factoring in how many days a month the ATN CA has to work in order to get earn that 78 hours credit vs the SWA FO to earn 105 trips.

Everyone SAYS its a paycut, and claims it is a given fact, but, again, show us the math.

Why do you continue to use average SWA credit, but only guarantee for ATN pilots? Not a valid comparison. Back during contract negotiations, it was calculated that the average AirTran pilot credits over 1100 hours per year. Base your numbers on that, not minimum guarantee, and you'll see where the pay cut comes from.