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Originally Posted by OscartheGrouch
(Post 1200226)
I have been an advocate for having the AT folks pay increased sooner (yesterday would be good).
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Originally Posted by Smokey23
(Post 1197938)
What Rolf said. Matthew, you should talk to some of your co-workers six months or so after they've crossed the bridge and ask them how big their pay cut has been. Even if you can't fog a mirror, most months will exceed 89 TFP. If you're willing to put a little work and some savvy into it most pilots (even commuters) can add an extra 15-20 TFP while adding no more than one extra day of work.
Rates seldom tell the whole story. Kinda like some Delta -73 pilots around here thinking their TA will give them "SWA pay" by 2015. ;) (and I wish the TA actually would!) It's only DALPA that's trying to "sell us" on the idea that we will make as much as SWA with this new TA. I know that your work rules and pay scale allow you to make more in less time than we will make under this TA. DALPA is trying to scare us into the idea that there is no more to be had while DAL management has already stated that productivity improvements will make this cost neutral (I guess we're worth a lot to DAL). Not sure if this will pass (DALPA is putting on a full court press so I'm guessing it will barely pass - say 55-45). It's really sad how far DALPA has fallen in the last 8 years. This is a permanent reset of poor pay and work rules that we will never get back - EVER. |
Originally Posted by OscartheGrouch
(Post 1200226)
Sherpa,
I for one recognize what you have been dealt. I would also say that while this SLI is over, I have been an advocate for having the AT folks pay increased sooner (yesterday would be good). The looks I get when I suggest this are funny. Everyone lives in their own world and many need to think of others. All that being said, and I am not trying to get into some argument (again), but the first offer had pay and seat protection. I know, I know, it was a POS. So says the great Whack. Perhaps your group and ours voting on the first offer would have been acceptable?:confused: The Oscar Just an outside observer so no vested interest (but always happy to venture and unsolicited opinion):) Just working to understand the reasons that SWAPA and SWA aren't doing something to better ease the transition of the former ATN pilots into SWA. It sure seems like SWA and SWAPA are proud of how they protected the current employees with little to no thought that ATN will be approximately 23% of your entire pilot force going forward. While I don't believe any of the pilots will do anything to sabotage their job there is a big difference between coming to work enthusiastic about your work environment and "just doing my job". The letter that started this thread sure seems like a knife in the back to all the former ATN pilots that wasn't really necessary. Even though everyone knew that SWA was going to do everything they could to get rid of the 717 it sure seems over the top the way the SWAPA and SWA are handing the transition. |
Good conversation, and good points by all. Just a few thoughts:
1) AirTran guarantee is now 75/76 per 30/31 day month, not 70 2) AirTran monthly block hours per line are decreasing as aircraft go to SWA. Pilots that used to get over 100 hours credit are scavenging to break 80. 3) The "First Offer" (SIA #1 at AirTran, SL9, I think, at SWA) would not have prevented the AAI pilots from losing their seats as the 717's went away. It's time to put that thing to rest. Regardless, I'm heartened to see that many SWA pilots realize that we haven't really been handed the "winning lottery ticket" that they initially thought we were handed, and also I think that many AAI pilots are realizing that junior SWA pilots' concerns about being adversely impacted are also valid. I also appreciate that many SWA crew have gone out of their way in the airports and crew hotels to to say "Hi" and "Welcome Aboard" etc., as awkward as it can be sometimes. It is definitely appreciated. |
Originally Posted by MatthewAMEL
(Post 1197469)
I understand. The average here is higher, as well. I was just using minimum numbers for both sides to simplify.
I have no doubt there are SWA FOs that make more than some ATN CAs, but 'hour for hour' ATN CAs make more than SWA FOs. The only published schedule I have is the Transition Bid results. There is no official revised schedule yet since there has been no re-bid. I am in the bottom 500. With 36 717s not scheduled to go to Delta until 2015, I made the assumption (I know, I know) I would be one of the last to go. We are all on the SWAPA CBA still on 1/1/15. Won't get into the loss of QOL when they go back to left seat. It is real and it is done. period. over. |
Originally Posted by Brakes Set
(Post 1217106)
For Clipper and the others, my buddy has a 15 plus year history of 97 hours credit per month. That is CREDIT. That is very common among the top 20%. 183 per hour is not the same as 151. It is a pay cut- period.
Won't get into the loss of QOL when they go back to left seat. It is real and it is done. period. over. Some folks can make 97 hours credit a month. How many days a month does it take to make that? Many SWA FOs can pull down 140-150 trips per month. They work their butts off and play the premium flying game. I don't include them in a comparison for that reason. Again, what does an average, fly your line ATN captain make? How many days would he/she work? Not the min guarantee, or someone who busts their butt, picks up extra, etc. Just a line flying captain... Yes, QOL will go down returning to the left seat, but they pay goes WAY up, as well... |
Originally Posted by ClipperJet
(Post 1217866)
... Not a top 20 percent premium flyer (wouldn't a pilot in the top 20 % keep their seat?) ...
If SWA has trained enough Captains to fill the existing seats by Jan 2015, then it might be a while before more Captain seats open up since most new aircraft purchases will be replacing 717's and 737 Classics for the foreseeable future. |
Originally Posted by ClipperJet
(Post 1217866)
Again, what does an average, fly your line ATN captain make? How many days would he/she work? Not the min guarantee, or someone who busts their butt, picks up extra, etc. Just a line flying captain...
Captain Carl Kuwitzky and SWAPA wrote a packet for AirTran guys about Southwest and SWAPA during the 'courtship' phase. SWAPA #'s about themselves, which I've quoted below, are certainly pretty accurate:
The most junior ATN CA on the property has a min guarantee of almost $138K ($151 x 76 hours x 12 months). If this CA can pick up just 2 hours of credit per month, he/she too is "over $140,000". The most junior ATN CA makes at least as much as the 'average' SWA FO. An "average, fly your line ATN captain" makes more, since this CA has a higher hourly rate, flies a line, and likely enhances their month for some additional pay, just as the average SWA pilot does. Remember, the 'average' ATN CA is around 25% on list @ ATN. Thus, when this 'average' CA becomes a SWA FO, they will almost certainly take a pay cut. In the same way, those ATN CA's who do get back to the left seat at SWA will see a pay raise for the same reasons - the hourly pay rate differences. Those are the facts, backed up by independently verifiable numbers. Please respect the results. |
Originally Posted by Sniper
(Post 1220540)
Nobody has posted it on this forum, just like nobody has posted the average SWA FO income - probably b/c nobody knows for sure. I can't fix your problem with the lack of an AirTran # (I don't know it either), but the SWA #'s are known.
Captain Carl Kuwitzky and SWAPA wrote a packet for AirTran guys about Southwest and SWAPA during the 'courtship' phase. SWAPA #'s about themselves, which I've quoted below, are certainly pretty accurate:
The most junior ATN CA makes at least as much as the 'average' SWA FO. An "average, fly your line ATN captain" makes more, since this CA has a higher hourly rate, flies a line, and likely enhances their month for some additional pay, just as the average SWA pilot does. Remember, the 'average' ATN CA is around 25% on list @ ATN. Thus, when this 'average' CA becomes a SWA FO, they will almost certainly take a pay cut. In the same way, those ATN CA's who do get back to the left seat at SWA will see a pay raise for the same reasons - the hourly pay rate differences. Those are the facts, backed up by independently verifiable numbers. Please respect the results. Once again, lets do the math... SWA FO: 1260 "trips" a year times $125 (7 year pay--approx longevity of a junior ATN CA) is $157,500 ATN CA: $151 x 76 x 12 = $137,712. 78 hours a month: $141,336 Take it up a 12 year captain at $165: $165 x 78 x12 = $154,440. Still less than the 12 year SWA FO: 1260 trips x $132 = $166,320. I'm not factoring in how many days a month the ATN CA has to work in order to get earn that 78 hours credit vs the SWA FO to earn 105 trips. Everyone SAYS its a paycut, and claims it is a given fact, but, again, show us the math. |
Why do you continue to use average SWA credit, but only guarantee for ATN pilots? Not a valid comparison. Back during contract negotiations, it was calculated that the average AirTran pilot credits over 1100 hours per year. Base your numbers on that, not minimum guarantee, and you'll see where the pay cut comes from.
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