Good post.

GREAT point.
Thank you.

It is hard to argue with that statement. Sounds as if this individual has some negotiating experience with another carrier. I have not added up those 6 to find the averages but it would be interesting to see where the numbers fall.

Without scope and LTD it's irellevant... those protections are necessity.
It's clear the NMB doesn't really care what we think is 'fair.' sounds like she thought a 43% improvement was sufficient. Now we are left to our own devices to get this
Thing moving.
To be sure the leverage we
Thought the NMB would provide by keeping us at the table has been lost. It will be what it will be . But don't go
Clark griswald and pay for that swimming pool this Xmas .

Extremely good point. Don't forget what happened to ASTAR,COMAIR, and Emery or CF Freight.

Keep in mind when comparing rates at the legacies:

• Spirit work rules are probably better overall, especially better than AA
• Spirit doesn't contract out 50% of their flying to regionals with 76 and under aircraft, I would gladly make slightly less today to have had that flying be in house instead of spending close to a decade at a regional
• Comparing future rates or rates "being negotiated" is crazy and nuts, same as basing a home's value off sales that will be occurring in the future

Waiting may pay off as jetBlue should be upping theirs slightly but how much will you obtain by waiting? It's quite possible your NC is overstepping and still looking at rates. If you guys want better work rules it will cost on the rate side of the equation.

If you continue to be "unreasonable" in the eyes of the NMB you will be left in a hold for years, this is exactly what the company wants, the longer you hold out for best instead of accepting good or better now the more money they make and the closer we get to an economic downturn where things might not be so easy to negotiate. This was literally AA's story back in 2000-2001 time frame. The wanted UAL +%, it never happened and when the furloughs started that time had come and gone.

You definitely deserve WAY more than you are making now and it kinda pains me to see all the guys I've known go to Spirit waiting on this raise, I really did think it would happen for you by this time.

Just out of curiousty, what's do you know about AA work rules? Example(s) would be great.

Here are the AA work rules

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I'm not joking they are practically nonexistent. I don't know a ton about your contract but what I've picked up it is light years ahead in the QOL area than we are.

If your trip cancels do you go on reserve? At AA you do.

Ummmm okay...so IF during a downturn and 1/3 of the airlines just took concessionary contracts, I'm sure you'll be the first one to argue that the good contracts are irrelevant and we should strive for concessions also because those are the newest contracts and we should get the average of those. Hmmmm

Your housing example is just crazy!

Companies should pay fair market rate based on their segment of the industry. Market rate is whatever your competitors in your segment of the industry CURRENTLY pays.

To argue that, well... they're negotiating right now and will have a better contract soon thus we should compare ourselves to their next contract has as merit as the company saying, "well, 2 contracts from now Alaska/virgin will have a contract during a downturn so we'll use that as a baseline."

Face it, your union and the outspoken clowns has backed your position into a corner. For the sake of saving face at this point, I don't see y'all willing to come out and accept anything but legacy rates. And I believe the NMB will see the company's proposal as entirely reasonable and will stop any strike before it starts. Y'all are basically stuck in this hellhole of a stalemate for years to come.

Thank goodness there's full retro!!! Good luck!

You obviously don't know much if any about AA work rules..

- When a trip is cancelled you DO NOT go on reserve. If a 3 day trip is cancelled they can assign you another trip BUT only if it stays within the original footprint. Obviously with some contractual limitations.

I agree the 4 days off between trips is nice but other than that I can't find anything else.

No red-eye plus 1, schedule integrity (reserves too!!), no ready reserve (United I believe has it), red-green, no involuntary junior manning/extensions.... There's probably more, but I'm sleepy...

What's red-eye plus 1 and red-green?

How much do you get paid to write this crap? Enjoy your lonely life of crap my friend, I'm sure people love you everywhere you go.

Meh...

I'll be patient. Nobody has backed me into any corner. I'll stick it out for as long as it takes to get a fair and equitable contract.

Sadly, that seems to be reality. I don't like it, and I won't advocate for it, but precedent is there. For reference, see Alaska's Kasher award back in 2005. The company was profitable, yet a bankruptcy-average contract was awarded. It sucked, but it happened.

How so? You're trying to find the current value of something. Not the value of something from 2011. What houses are selling for NOW is what is relevant.

I think perhaps we've miscommunicated. I'm not trying to compare anything to future rates, just current rates. Contracts past their amendable date aren't "current," and don't make much sense for comparison. If we're going to do that, can I use Delta and United rates from 2000, corrected for inflation? Should an arbitrator deciding a contract at a narrowbody carrier use Spirit's current rates for comparison?

That's called reserve! And there is no choice given, it's take this trip or leave it. If you decline it guess what, you lose all pay protection!

Yes, what houses actually sold for. Not listed for which is what you are doing by comparing a contract that doesn't even have a T/A.

I can understand your viewpoint but that just isn't reality. The way to solve it is for a short contract length (3 years) and/or a "me too" trim up clause like at AA.

You must be USAirways or AWA.

You can refuse a trip as a line holder, what's your point? Former LUS or AWA? Regardless, not the approptiate thread to discuss AA stuff.

Which contracts was I making comparisons to that weren't even TA's yet? DAL/UAL/AMR/SWA/HAL/Allegiant are all post-ratification current contracts. Those are houses that have recently sold.

The others are the invalid numbers due to non-current contracts. Those are houses that are on the market but have not yet sold, and the only info available is what the purchase price was the previous time they were sold after the last real-estate bubble burst.

Comparing yourself to JetBlue/Alaska/Virgin/Frontier pre-TA rates is doing exactly what you're arguing against.

I know you'd like them to be invalid because they're low, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. They're still paying those rates thus they're current and valid. There

Are we still using housing as an example? Because that's about as apples to kiwi as it can be. How about for the same house exact house, it value is less in lower cost neighborhoods/cities/areas of the country. And some of those houses even though it looks the same, has foundation issues and/or flood damage.

Yes yes, I know my statements has fallacies in them. Because it's a stupid comparison.

Current? A contract that is years past its amendable date is "current?"

As for foundation damage, I can't help it if they keep buying Airbuses... :D

duh!!!!!!

.

I suppose maybe if a person has "low-tier" negotiating tactics...

Well said! Wait?...

The number one goal. Eliminate work rules.

Lloyd,

I'm curious- why the 180 degree shift in attitude from September?

Must be that extra $15 million.

Reality. Maybe some understanding. Just like almost everyone else was hoping for it all. Bottom line is there is just way too much risk for what we might gain back. I think Paul makes some valid points on what is likely to happen if this is rejected.

Not drinking any koolaid but trying to listen and learn as much as I can from everyone and I believe if our NC thought we could do better we wouldn’t be voting right now.

I started looking at the forums around that time and today have decided this is it for me. Too much BS and bashing and drama. Life is too short to waste it on a here I have too many other hobbies then this. Good luck to everyone, flame away cause I’m not going to read any more responses.

Fair enough, and I agree with you. I hope the tradeoff of your time off for industry trailing pay is a worthwhile investment for you.

I'm not on here to disparage, berate, or otherwise lessen the value of any of my colleagues. Quite the opposite.

Time is scarce and unlike a second, legitimate offer from Spirit Airlines, there's no way to get time back.

Vote wisely.

True. We can also say time is like work rules, you never get them back.

In September, the "proposal" was time wasted.

Now that we have LTD (partially company paid), in exchange for the 22 hour layover rig- this is a definite YES vote?

And you have the insincerity to our profession to attempt to berate others that are questioning your "judgement?"

Stay classy ;)