Envoy or Spirit ?
 

May seem obvious but let me explain

"Final Target" is AA or SWA. I need an airline with a Dallas pilot base due to personal situation. Pay is not the issue, but I need to be in Dallas, and a company with a Dallas pilot base is preferred (agreed that nobody can guess how soon you can get awarded a Dallas base....)

With that said, I have been told I "easily qual" for Envoy (ATP, 6000 TT, 1500 multi Turbine PIC, college degree) and "maybe could go direct to Spirit". I have no 121 time, all Part 91 corporate ops type stuff. So I need to check the 121 box.

With that said, I am applying to ALL of the carriers but if Envoy and Spirit both called, which one should I go to ? Envoy offers a flow (albeit 5+ years) but if I stay alive and breathing I will eventually end up at AA. The Envoy/Eagle training program has always had a great reputation. Off-duty travel on the extensive AA network is appealing. Spirit offers greater pay and no flow...again, final target is AA and SWA.

Money not super critical in this decision. If one is double or triple the other, then yes, that will play a role in my decision.

My initial gut belief is checking the 121 block via Airbus time and with not-poverty wages is the way to go, but maybe I am missing something. Flow could indeed be something to consider.

Thoughts ?

Thank you

* Full disclosure: I will let this poll run for a few weeks then maybe post similar poll over at Envoy forum.

Please comment/reply if you have information beyond simple poll responses. Thank You

That's a pretty good reason to enjoy the good training program at envoy. Just my opinion, but spirit training isn't easy. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4cd0903f9d.jpg

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PSA will hire you. Have a buddy who was in the same situation a year ago. Having 1000 hrs 121 time you can be awarded Captain within a year of being on property.

Did he over emphasize a "Dallas Base" requirement? :rolleyes:

I was replying to the screen shot, Tommy191

Banana isn't Tommy. He's just using Tommy's plight to deter those considering Spirit.

Gotcha! Anyways.. Envoy is my suggestion.

Go to Envoy, take the bonus and flow. You’ll hate it here. This is Mesa with big planes

According to your other post, you are not with Spirit so how do you know if he would like it or hate it here...

Has nothing to do about hating. Envoy has a lot more movememt (25 going to AA per month plus others leaving else where). He would be a senior FO before he knows it. He doesn't seem to care about $$ not that Spirit pays more (not yet anyways). In 6 years or so he can flow to American (might take longer if he wants to stay in DFW). Keeps his sick bank, vacation, and better traveling benefits.. Question is, why do YOU think Spirit is a better choice? Spirit offers him DFW and an Airbus type (which only Asia might care about).

As far as hating Spirit.. my best friend is a Captain at Spirit. I wouldn't say he hates Spirit but he doesn't like it. Can't wait for the phone to ring (AA, Delta, UA, FedEx or UPS).

Completely agree! And like your best friend, I am also here at Spirit and looking forward to the phone call out of this place.

After you flow what is the estimate to hold DFW at AA? I thought I've heard it's around a decade right now but that may not be accurate.

Jan/Feb 2016 DOH was awarded DFW for Nov (737)

Be smart, go to Envoy. ;)

Let's clear up this misconception.
All pilots transferring to AA from Envoy begining with the July 2017 classes fall under the part of the contract called Protected Pilots. Protected Pilots and anyone junior to them (including today's new hires) do not get any longevity benefits. When you flow to AA now you get a job, that's it.

Worked at Envoy for 7 years? Thank you. You will start at with 0 years time of service for vacation accrual, retirement, sick, travel, etc...

Did you use ZED tickets while you were at Envoy? We'll you'll have to wait the 6-12months to use them again.

401k? 0% company contribution for the first 12 months, not fully vested for 7 years.

The 824 group who you are referring to were the last to receive these benefits.

Was not aware of the change. Regardless, I still can't see a single reason to go to Spirt over Envoy. Not in his case anyways..

Haha you're funny.. "you get a job, that's it". You realize how many pilots want to just "get a job, that's it"?

PS- All new hires get ZED after 6 months.

I never said I’m not here. It is possible to retake the portion that was unsatisfactory on the ride. I know exactly what it’s like here and I feel like I’m trapped here now. Oh joy

It's pathetic that this is even a question.

I know a guy who didn't make it through Spirit, he's been hired at two different airlines since.

Wow. My information/assumption was obviously wrong. Thanks for the correct info.

I am at Spirit, but if I were looking for a job and starting at the bottom of a seniority list, I’d go with the airline that will make me more money over the course of my career, has a flow to a Legacy, has a large presence in the city where I’d like to be based, and isn’t an embarrassment when people ask you “who do you fly for”.

This wouldn't be a problem for me if I was getting rich at the same time. I'd just laugh to myself while they badmouth it and I cash my checks. Only problem is they are right and I'm undercompensated by half meaning I need a 100% raise to be industry standard. That's not a laughing matter unfortunately.

Seriously though, if you need an internet forum poll to help you make a career decision, much less one that is to help you get somewhere else, please go to another airline...if you get an offer.

Why are you so grumpy? He's just trying to see what we all think is his best move. He mentioned he doesn't have any 121 time so our recommendations might help him make the right move. If you think Spirit is the better option than give him some advice.

Envoy isn't exactly poverty wages either with the signing bonus and retention bonus... You just have to watch for the 1st year FO to 2d year FO pay cut.
But I think you get paid more at Envoy as a 1st year FO, than you do as a 1st year Spirit FO.

If you have the 1000 SIC, you might even luck out and get that 3 month captain upgrade and don't have to worry about the 2d year pay cut, although you'll be junior for a long time as more senior FOs upgrade ahead of you.

If AA/SWA is where you're wanting to end up, make sure you tell Sandy that so she knows where to file your resume.

If you're really wanting a Dallas base, you forgot to consider Mesa. They have a DFW base.
But looking at your post history, it appears you already work at Envoy, so you should just put in a bid for a base vacancy. or displace to equipment that has a DFW domicile.

This has been changed, everyone flowing now gets 16% contribution their first year.

I was under the impression. Unfortunately that's not the case for Envoy flow pilots outside 824 group. Basically they start from zero, new hire statues. Not sure about the PDT or PSA.

Go to Envoy, flow to AA and never look back.

How so? I'm at Mesa, and we cannot give even one leg of our trips away on our trade board. It has been that way for at least 2 years now. You guys can drop trips to your heart's content according to the NK pilots I've spoken to. Much better QOL than Mesa. Be happy with what you've got, because you guys are the exception!

Haha..."Be happy with what you got"

This is exactly what misguided blindness looks like.

Well, maybe you don't care if you're run ragged with only 11 days off each month, but I do. I'd be happy with an imperfect airline that allows me to drop days when I have things to do at home.

Grid has to be green for that.... Depending on where you are based, staffing could be an issue for drops.

We stay red where I am. Do you know of any majors with green reserves besides you guys?

Do you know any majors that pay what we get paid?

Ours is not so green anymore, FWIW. Yes there are a sprinkling of days (depending on seat & base) but it’s definitely not like it was a couple of years ago.

Please stay far away from this group. The "I'll take whatever as long as I get to have more than 11 days off" is toxic to the core.

You are a wet dream for our management. "Better than my regional," right?:rolleyes:

That provision could very well be going away in the next contract. Being able to drop is a major sticking point with management.

Then I guess it’s gonna be a long time before we get a new contract:)

It's all a major sticking point with management. Transition! Must go to PBS! Ok, now it's dropping/trading! And scope, can't possibly put scope in there! And and and and. Look at the company's last proposal and you can easily see how long of a list of items they will claim. Leaving scope out totally tipped their hand, that they still have no intention of ever coming to a satisfactory agreement.

They're going to cry that every single thing is absolutely critical to the business model, except having pilots who are happy to stay here. Remember, less than a year ago their investors slides proudly claimed the junior nature of the pilot group was a major driving force in the business model. Just because it's not in the slideshow anymore doesn't mean they're not still counting on the pilot group remaining underpaid and comparatively young.

Without being permitted to strike, the only options are to suck it up and take it while hoping for ALPA to come up with a miracle, or vote with your feet when the opportunity arises.

[QUOTE=flensr;2451012]It's all a major sticking point with management. Transition! Must go to PBS! Ok, now it's dropping/trading! And scope, can't possibly put scope in there! And and and and. Look at the company's last proposal and you can easily see how long of a list of items they will claim. Leaving scope out totally tipped their hand, that they still have no intention of ever coming to a satisfactory agreement.

They're going to cry that every single thing is absolutely critical to the business model, except having pilots who are happy to stay here. Remember, less than a year ago their investors slides proudly claimed the junior nature of the pilot group was a major driving force in the business model. Just because it's not in the slideshow anymore doesn't mean they're not still counting on the pilot group remaining underpaid and comparatively young.

Without being permitted to strike, the only options are to suck it up and take it while hoping for ALPA to come up with a miracle, or vote with your feet when the opportunity arises.[/QUOTE

Exactly!