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Originally Posted by SourGrapes
(Post 2519747)
predicktion-----reverse the yes/no percentages and that will the vote outcome
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Originally Posted by NKSpilot
(Post 2519744)
If I were Spirit management
How happy I would be If this TA got voted down And extended a year or three. stag·na·tion staɡˈnāSH(ə)n/Submit noun 1. the state of not flowing or moving. "blocked drains resulting in water stagnation" 2. lack of activity, growth, or development. "a period of economic stagnation" |
Originally Posted by falcon2000aj
(Post 2519423)
Rescheduling- So after they exhaust the reserves, and the X/Y list you might get rescheduled with pay? That may happen once or twice a year!! |
Originally Posted by Lobaeux
(Post 2519773)
Be very careful when thinking this, the wording of the contract doesn’t support it. The key is the “...prevent flight cancellations or delay.” and “The intent...”. It’s going to be very tough to argue the intent was there to bypass reserves when Ops is looking at a delay and the Reserve is a three hour callout. The minimal amount of rescheduling compensation isn’t enough to give up the sanctity of your schedule.
I don't trust this language one bit. |
Originally Posted by DFWLECNOW
(Post 2519339)
I'm a yes vote. I'm not proud of this TA, but I never expected to be. This TA gets me/us:
1) More money (though nothing to brag about) 2) Real LTD compared to what we have 3) A DC retirement 4) Intact healthcare which was already pretty good 5) Maintains some work rules like red/green 6) Some scope improvements though not airtight like SWA I'm not going to vote No because this group hasn't shown unity, barely votes in union elections, rarely volunteers to do anything that isn't self serving and shows no sign of changing. I'm not going to risk these gains so the rest of you can cry about section 25. I agree that losing reserve drops is bad but I'm going to lock in gains and move on. I have little to no confidence that this pilot group can do any better. Brutally honest. |
Originally Posted by NKSpilot
(Post 2519644)
How do you figure Jetblue makes this now? Our TA has higher rates than what I can see on APC posted for JB. Especially when you include the 321 override.
As far a negotiating a me too clause, any me too clause is highly unlikely to be agreed upon (nonstarter from management) because it makes their cost increase an unlimited risk. United is certainly the exception to the norm. As has been said, you can negotiate for anything but you need to get them to agree to it, thats the hard part. Of course we all WANT more but it doesnt matter what we want, reality is what it is. Denying reality will get us nowhere. Nobody wants to say this during negotiations. We have to puff ourselves up for the fight and at least act like we are in a position of power. That time is gone and passed. Now we need to do what is best for us considering where we are now. Those responsible shoved it right up our collective a$$es and ALPA let us burn for their efforts. If you don’t think that had some influence on the mediation process, you are naive. |
Originally Posted by ExiT
(Post 2519402)
I think the DFWLEC guy got it right.
I will probably vote Yes I wanted to believe Juri when he said this place would be "the next Southwest", but unfortunately that's just not gonna happen. This isn't a legacy level contract because Spirit isn't a top tier carrier, however bad we may want it to be. This isn't a secret. The mediator, our management, other pilots, our passengers, and even our friends and family all know this. That's no reflection on us as individuals or pilots, but the reality of this company's position in the airline industry. Are we really that surprised that we didn't get a cut and paste of Delta's contract? I understand the argument that we fly the same aircraft on the same routes and we tried that line, unfortunately no one cared. Section 25 is terrible. No reserve drops is a serious loss as well. However, my biggest priorities in this negotiation were improved scope, reasonable ltd, compensation, and dc retirement. None of this stuff is industry leading, but it's all in this deal. We can drag this out and keep trying to convince everyone we are United, or take a nice raise now along with improved benefits and move on. If we vote no, I don't see us getting back the monetary difference no matter how long a new offer takes. If this passes, yes we are going to take a beating during irops but we will be making good money at the same time. At the end of the day I work here for pay, not for the great overnights. And no matter how good a contract we get, not all the Delta pilots are going to nod at you in the hallway. I will vote what is best for my family, and will respect everyone else whatever they decide. Sounds like you two YES voters don’t get out much on your days off, or even have a family or value your QOL. Hope you are a small percentage here..... Selling out to the company, sad Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Originally Posted by NKSMCOTAKEOVER
(Post 2519592)
Man O man I really hope this online poll is representative of what the group is feeling.
I converted one college to a No vote, thankfully. He kept fixating on the pay rates. People are blinded by $$$. |
Originally Posted by NKSMCOTAKEOVER
(Post 2519865)
Spelling correction: Colleague
Manager at McDonalds makes more than 5yr FO at this place, and is home every night without having to learn/use/**** at PBS and these new proposed work rules. |
Originally Posted by astral
(Post 2519156)
I am a low to middle seniority CA and after slide, can easily get 20-21 days off while using only 7 VAC days.
No chance of that anymore, my 7 day VAC is worthless. If I have to PAY to get above $5K in LTD it's NOT a benefit, as I'm paying for it! You may like being a slave to CS, not me, Rescheduling is a huge concession! |
Originally Posted by Super EZ E
(Post 2519871)
I 2nd that. Pay is way to low for those working rules. Bendo did a great job. If I was on the board of directors I'd kick the guy a $1 million bonus! The secret is ALPA stole the signing bonus and are buying Captain votes with it! Nice job ALPA!
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Originally Posted by NKSMCOTAKEOVER
(Post 2519592)
Man O man I really hope this online poll is representative of what the group is feeling.
I converted one college to a No vote, thankfully. He kept fixating on the pay rates. People are blinded by $$$. |
Originally Posted by UNSUBSCRIBE
(Post 2519957)
Its not, it’ll pass and you’ll take your money and be one of those dbags who walks around with a “xx %” lanyard like anyone gives a rats ***
Go enjoy time with yourself/family before the company takes it way with this cost neutral TA.... |
20,550 Regionals pilots are looking at this and wishing that was their TA :D
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Originally Posted by cf105
(Post 2520009)
20,550 Regionals pilots are looking at this and wishing that was their TA :D
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Originally Posted by cf105
(Post 2520009)
20,550 Regionals pilots are looking at this and wishing that was their TA :D
This isn’t a flipping regional!!! |
Lets compare with a legacy
I understand we are not a Legacy airline in any way, my significant other is an Airbus Pilot at DAL. We already know they get paid more than us. Here are SOME of Delta's QOL and soft pay off the top of my head:
- 12 hour or longer layover must be in metropolitan area - Red / Green system is the same...drop / trade / swap as much as you want, just like us. Do not have to maintain a certain number of hours for insurance etc. - Green slip for line holder (200%) (same as junior assignment, but goes from top of list to bottom) - Health insurance almost as good, same price for cadillac plan, but has a $350.00 deductible per person...United healthcare as well. DAL has option for HSA gold, which is nearly the same as our diamond plan. - Sick time - 240 hours after 5 years of service. Every year in June each pilot starts with 240 hours. After 100 hours used you need a note from your doctor. First-year pilots get 75 hours and it gradually goes up to 240 by end of year 5. -STD - half of last 6 months pay with option to get full pay from Delta Pilot Medical Plan for up to 2 years in a career. Most guys do not use this if they have been at DAL for more than 5 years because they have 240 hours of sick time, which covers about 3 months. -LTD - Half pay until your 65 - "rolling thunder for reserves" - get green slip (aka junior assigned to spirit pilots) They pay 100 percent on top guarantee and drop your next reserve day. If you dont have another reserve day in the month, you get a "payback day" which will drop a day of a trip with pay later on or add to vacation Short call / Long call reserve. - Long call 12 hour call out with 24 hours on call. Seniority Order Can be converted to short call up to 6 times per month without additional pay, with 1 flight hour paid after 6. (it hardly goes above 6) Rescheduling / Rerouted - paid at 200% Min day - 5.15 hours guaranteed. International override - 6.50 captain / 4.50 FO Yes that includes any time you land in another country Profit Sharing every valentines day (Feb 14th) It is not a bonus, it is another paycheck, taxed as such. International FOs and Captains average $50,000 net New hires get insurance the day they start. Pay during training approx $3000 per month. They have to buy a hotel / crashpad, but have option to go home on weekends and most do. Training is very low stress. Taking notes is not needed and discouraged. AQP - training is much, much, much easier. Airbus - 8 limitations, 4 memory items. Type checkride is a LOFT (LOE) from right seat, the only time the FO flys the airplane is when it is transferred to him, so that the Captain can troubleshoot. Option to go to different fleets but upgrade is same time, if not quicker, as Spirit on the Airbus. Max days worked on a wide body a month - 12 days Again, I get it, we are not a legacy and do not expect to get as much as them, but what do you guys think? Is this proposed TA even comparable? Are we selling our souls to the devil for the pay? Can we get both Pay and QOL if we vote no? Or can we get something in between? My opinion: The new pay might be doable, but the QOL needs to be at least what it was, because QOL with the current TA is industry standard, not industry leading. |
Somebody needs to redo this poll as anonymous since it will be skewed. There will be lots of yes voters that will not publicly vote in a poll to avoid a debate.
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Originally Posted by KC135
(Post 2520038)
Somebody needs to redo this poll as anonymous since it will be skewed. There will be lots of yes voters that will not publicly vote in a poll to avoid a debate.
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Originally Posted by Conquistador27
(Post 2520046)
Last check I count 8 people as no voters who don’t work here.
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Originally Posted by Conquistador27
(Post 2520046)
Last check I count 8 people as no voters who don’t work here.
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Originally Posted by Stan Spadowski
(Post 2520080)
Saw sign in FO's window today in LAS saying "VOTE NO" with window shade up! If that FO' is on here, I applaud you!
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Originally Posted by UNSUBSCRIBE
(Post 2520081)
Actually pretty fng dumb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXc5ltzKq3Y |
Originally Posted by Stan Spadowski
(Post 2520080)
Saw sign in FO's window today in LAS saying "VOTE NO" with window shade up! If that FO' is on here, I applaud you!
Probably same idiot that started Chokers.com. Not good. |
Nay.
That said, still attending the roadshow to hear their explanation of a few things and their intentions going forward. |
Originally Posted by KC135
(Post 2520038)
Somebody needs to redo this poll as anonymous since it will be skewed. There will be lots of yes voters that will not publicly vote in a poll to avoid a debate.
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Originally Posted by whyydafu
(Post 2520015)
I understand we are not a Legacy airline in any way, my significant other is an Airbus Pilot at DAL. We already know they get paid more than us. Here are SOME of Delta's QOL and soft pay off the top of my head:
- 12 hour or longer layover must be in metropolitan area - Red / Green system is the same...drop / trade / swap as much as you want, just like us. Do not have to maintain a certain number of hours for insurance etc. - Green slip for line holder (200%) (same as junior assignment, but goes from top of list to bottom) - Health insurance almost as good, same price for cadillac plan, but has a $350.00 deductible per person...United healthcare as well. DAL has option for HSA gold, which is nearly the same as our diamond plan. - Sick time - 240 hours after 5 years of service. Every year in June each pilot starts with 240 hours. After 100 hours used you need a note from your doctor. First-year pilots get 75 hours and it gradually goes up to 240 by end of year 5. -STD - half of last 6 months pay with option to get full pay from Delta Pilot Medical Plan for up to 2 years in a career. Most guys do not use this if they have been at DAL for more than 5 years because they have 240 hours of sick time, which covers about 3 months. -LTD - Half pay until your 65 - "rolling thunder for reserves" - get green slip (aka junior assigned to spirit pilots) They pay 100 percent on top guarantee and drop your next reserve day. If you dont have another reserve day in the month, you get a "payback day" which will drop a day of a trip with pay later on or add to vacation Short call / Long call reserve. - Long call 12 hour call out with 24 hours on call. Seniority Order Can be converted to short call up to 6 times per month without additional pay, with 1 flight hour paid after 6. (it hardly goes above 6) Rescheduling / Rerouted - paid at 200% Min day - 5.15 hours guaranteed. International override - 6.50 captain / 4.50 FO Yes that includes any time you land in another country Profit Sharing every valentines day (Feb 14th) It is not a bonus, it is another paycheck, taxed as such. International FOs and Captains average $50,000 net New hires get insurance the day they start. Pay during training approx $3000 per month. They have to buy a hotel / crashpad, but have option to go home on weekends and most do. Training is very low stress. Taking notes is not needed and discouraged. AQP - training is much, much, much easier. Airbus - 8 limitations, 4 memory items. Type checkride is a LOFT (LOE) from right seat, the only time the FO flys the airplane is when it is transferred to him, so that the Captain can troubleshoot. Option to go to different fleets but upgrade is same time, if not quicker, as Spirit on the Airbus. Max days worked on a wide body a month - 12 days Again, I get it, we are not a legacy and do not expect to get as much as them, but what do you guys think? Is this proposed TA even comparable? Are we selling our souls to the devil for the pay? Can we get both Pay and QOL if we vote no? Or can we get something in between? My opinion: The new pay might be doable, but the QOL needs to be at least what it was, because QOL with the current TA is industry standard, not industry leading. The info presented is eyeopening and surprisingly no one commented. I agree that we are selling out if this TA passes. Not to mention the obvious, that DAL leaders have respect for their pilots and do not have an agenda to diminish them for monetary gains. Keep dreaming if you think the rescheduling or otherwise "open season" relief given will not be the norm rather than the exception. If past practice has not convinced the Yes voters, that this company plays dirty and will abuse all available provisions to the maximum extend and beyond, what will? |
Originally Posted by ExiT
(Post 2519402)
I think the DFWLEC guy got it right.
I will probably vote Yes I wanted to believe Juri when he said this place would be "the next Southwest", but unfortunately that's just not gonna happen. This isn't a legacy level contract because Spirit isn't a top tier carrier, however bad we may want it to be. This isn't a secret. The mediator, our management, other pilots, our passengers, and even our friends and family all know this. That's no reflection on us as individuals or pilots, but the reality of this company's position in the airline industry. Are we really that surprised that we didn't get a cut and paste of Delta's contract? I understand the argument that we fly the same aircraft on the same routes and we tried that line, unfortunately no one cared. Section 25 is terrible. No reserve drops is a serious loss as well. However, my biggest priorities in this negotiation were improved scope, reasonable ltd, compensation, and dc retirement. None of this stuff is industry leading, but it's all in this deal. We can drag this out and keep trying to convince everyone we are United, or take a nice raise now along with improved benefits and move on. If we vote no, I don't see us getting back the monetary difference no matter how long a new offer takes. If this passes, yes we are going to take a beating during irops but we will be making good money at the same time. At the end of the day I work here for pay, not for the great overnights. And no matter how good a contract we get, not all the Delta pilots are going to nod at you in the hallway. I will vote what is best for my family, and will respect everyone else whatever they decide. |
No vote holding strong.
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Originally Posted by NKSMCOTAKEOVER
(Post 2521217)
No vote holding strong.
You start talking like that, they will have to change Kool-Aid flavors today at road show 2. Maybe Strawberry Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Originally Posted by Conquistador27
(Post 2520046)
Last check I count 8 people as no voters who don’t work here.
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Originally Posted by illtake2
(Post 2521257)
its more like 50, seriously its more 50/50 than you think
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Originally Posted by UNSUBSCRIBE
(Post 2521279)
It’ll pass by 70%+ easily
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Originally Posted by NKSMCOTAKEOVER
(Post 2521698)
Do you still whack off to Bendo’s post?
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Originally Posted by UNSUBSCRIBE
(Post 2521279)
It’ll pass by 70%+ easily
I always vote no, but this time I'm voting yes because overall, we are gaining many things; not just losing things. If this TA passes, then we could work on improvements to this contract via LOA's and the Grievance Process. We could also lobby the union and let them hear our voices for the next 4 years. My opinion; we are better off voting yes and moving forward and not looking backwards. |
Originally Posted by Green Giant
(Post 2521746)
We have been negotiating for too long. I have no idea if we could get a new TA in 2 Weeks, 2 Months, 2 Years or longer. If we did vote this down and we did get a new TA in 2 Weeks, what would it look like? Would we be any happier? We could be worse off but who the hell really knows.
I always vote no, but this time I'm voting yes because overall, we are gaining many things; not just losing things. If this TA passes, then we could work on improvements to this contract via LOA's and the Grievance Process. We could also lobby the union and let them hear our voices for the next 4 years. My opinion; we are better off voting yes and moving forward and not looking backwards. |
Originally Posted by NKSMCOTAKEOVER
(Post 2521755)
If this disgrace gets voted in we are going to have never look back at the risk of committing suicide from the QOL we gave up.
maybe just then you’ll be glad we got LTD......... Do you want to explain to your kids why Mommy lost her ability to fly airplanes? |
Honest question. What good has ever come from an LOA at Spirit?
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Originally Posted by UNSUBSCRIBE
(Post 2521759)
Id be very careful posting incredibly dumb **** like this because it will pass and when it does Somebody may question your sanity and ability to fly.
maybe just then you’ll be glad we got LTD......... Do you want to explain to your kids why Mommy lost her ability to fly airplanes? I can milk our “industry standard“ LTD. |
Originally Posted by NKSMCOTAKEOVER
(Post 2521787)
Awesome!
I can milk our “industry standard“ LTD. |
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