Spirit fumes question
 

Couldn’t find a current thread on it so I figured I’d ask here. Just saw these two events in recent days and had a few questions.

https://www.travelpulse.com/news/air...t-to-land.html

https://www.newsweek.com/spirit-airl...irport-1420652

Do you guys have fewer events now than you did a few years ago? In other words, is anything being done that has has a net benefit and reduction in events and/or reduced the severity of the events?

How many fume events do you guys have per month?

Do your NEOs have as many events?

Do older aircraft have more events, or is aircraft/engine age irrelevant?

Is APU oil responsible for any/many of your events?

My frontier buddies don’t seem to have any/many events. My AA buddies say they have a few but not a big deal. JB seems to have a ton. I’m convinced the IAEs and pratts are a lot worse in this regard than CFMs/LEAPs. Thanks for any input.

I can’t speak for other airlines but at Spirit, I feel a lot of it has to do with being strongly encouraged to recognize these events and act on them. Who knows how many unreported fume evens happen in the system.

To add. More awareness of potential real issues may lead to more sensitivity when an odor/fume is suspected. I believe fume events are real but I also believe not all "newsworthy" diverts due to odors are true fume events. Because of the very well known event here 4 years ago everyone is on high alert.

This. I’ve Believe the cabin crew is on the offensive. Anything slightly smells funny and it’s off we go.

I agree with what everyone else has said with regards to being especially vigilant here at Spirit. I remember smelling the dirty sock smell all the time in the E145 at a previous carrier but we were just told it was damp/moldy cabin filters. I smelt it much more often at my previous airline we just weren’t aware of what was happening.

Also I’m not a engineer by the farthest stretch but the IAE’s run with an oil pressure greater than 200 psi. On the CFM’s I think it’s in the 40s. Not sure if that huge oil pressure difference has anything to do with it. I could be wrong on the exact psi for the CFMs but that’s what I remember when I was looking at in on a Southwest 737.


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I've had a fume event and after dealing with everyone at ALPA I can tell you AA has the most events recorded. source is ALPA, all airline Boeing and Airbus have issues. I was very surprised when given the the above info.

I think the above poster has it right that we get a lot of press on this issue because from the top down the entire airline is trying to be proactive on it.

We've had procedure specific to fume events for awhile now. We've taken a leadership role in organizing working groups of airlines and manufacturers to try to solve the problem and we also have very detailed internal data collection for fume events. We're probably the experts on fume events in the industry. Fume events are one of the most crucial things on Ted and Bendo's minds right now - per the VP of Flight Ops in a recent recurrent class.

All that activity leads to a heightened state of awareness and whenever there's anything that seems suspicious the crew usually treats it as a fume event, real or not. The good side of that is that it will put pressure on the industry to find a solution. Sweeping events under the rug does no one any good.

Wait, did you say we had a VP in a recurrent class? To what do we owe the honor?

Since when does management come into recurrent classes?

Thought they would’ve put an end to that after Jryi said “Spirit needs another 9-11 type event.” And then started sending a chaperone around with him everywhere he spoke.

Hmm, I get the INTENT of the statement, but the wording was very poor.

It was our Vice President of Flight Operations. He had a Powerpoint presentation prepared for pilot classes and seemed like he had done the talk before. He spoke on a lot of issues including Wifi, the ALS verification procedure, future hiring, progress on the next aircraft order, fume events, LOSA, and a few others that I can't remember.

Another interesting tidbit: Both he and Ellis said the single biggest problem highlighted by the LOSA was our ramp safety. No surprise there.

I've noticed a marked improvement from our GSA's since the S4 training program but as you mention our below the wing service is extremely poor. I know we're gunning for WN in a few markets but I don't think we'll make much headway until everyone on our team is on our team and pulling in the same direction. I interact with some really good guys on our below the wing crews but they're unfortunately the exception instead of the norm.

As a side note, I had an S8 contractor who had ride privileges (this was new to me). He made it a point to check in with the crew, ask for the ride, and thanked us on his way off. He was either just a a really good apple or a well briefed one. It was a pleasure having him onboard.

Ellis said that after every LOSA observation they asked the crew: "What about the operation keeps you up at night?" The majority answered that it's a fear we are going to hurt someone on the ramp.

At least we're not sitting at the gate with an engine running while we hook up the jet bridge. Oh, wait...

This is the stupidest thing ( in my opinion) people do on the line. People don’t know how to use SETWA and common sense at the same time for some strange reason.

Agree. I will go down and make sure power and air are connected so I can kill the APU, taxi single engine, delay engine start during long pushback. I also 100% start the APU as I pull into the gate.

Absolutely agree with that. I end up riding on WN a lot to commute and 99% of the time everyone there is great. I really do think it's in part because everyone below the wing and up to the gate agents all actually work for WN. I know there are exceptions to every rule and that WN I'm sure has a few that aren't great but those seem to be few and far between. Here it seems the good ones are the exception. I was disappointed when we outsourced the gate agents, I feel like that was a step back.

At allegiant we have all CFMs and our fume events are fairly rare. We had a spate of them about a year ago after the company started a mitigation program, but that died down after the few month. I strongly suspect that the higher the level of awareness the more reports are received. For a while, we had FA's calling up front with possible fumes every time someone farted or took their shoes off. I haven't personally smelled a sustained dirty sock smell from the packs in a very long time. We switched to Mobil jet oil and they quit over servicing the APUs. That seemed to make a big difference. I used to get it maybe 2-3 times a year. Usually on idle descent into a humid place below 10000.

Do us a favor, stop doing the jobs of others. You are seriously making yourself the ramp supervisor by going down to remind them to do their job and hook up air and power? I guess this is why I don't get it, I dont do their job, only mine.

APU is on at the gate, once I see the ground power go green, thats step 1. Once I look out my window and see the air being hooked, thats step two. I turn the bleed off and once I feel cool air coming from the ground unit, then and only then do I turn the APU off. If all of this cant be accomplished in the 10 minutes it takes to shut down the engines, checklists, and pack bag, the APU with bleed stays on when I leave the plane for pax comfort as well as the FAs.

We are over a year into this new APU savings program and the weather is getting hotter. If they (the company) still cant get rampers to get air and power hooked up as soon as the plane comes in, there is no hope for it getting any better, anytime soon

Exactly. I'll play nice and shutdown the APU but only after cool air is coming in. I won't ask the FA's to do their job in 80+F or leave the same for the next crew.

APU on as I pull into the gate. A life may depend on it.

APU off once power and air get hooked up. Our profit sharing depends on it.

(Half of that I believe is great advice)

Don’t forget that 25% of the executive bonus payout is based on fuel savings.

So Bendo, Teddy, Tom, Laurie, and gang, are counting you!

If you are not part of the solution.....

I don't leave the plane before power and air are hooked up. I go down and ask for the ramp supervisor, I explain that we are supposed to keep the APU off till 10 min prior, if after the second time I go down telling them not to disconnect, and still they disconnect the air (25 minutes prior) I send an email with gate number and time to fuelburn@spirit (and here is the reply I got within the hour:

Thu 5/9/2019 7:55 PM
Hello ,###
Thanks for your message – I have shared this with my station leadership at PIT for corrective action,


I also send that email every single time the air can't keep up with the OAT. I make $210/flight hour, so about $150/hr in uniform, they make $12/hr. Our job is seniority based, they can go flip burgers at the King tomorrow for the same pay/benefits. Who should be more invested to keep this company profitable?


If you really think you are affecting their bonus think again, they will just outsource something else for short term profit gain, and blame the economy once that affects our performance.

And while I am ranting:
I can remember most here complaining about our operational performance, "but if they would just pay us what we deserve" everything would get better. The contract passed, most (by far) voted in favor, so get your ass in gear and do your job and every one else's to prove we deserve what we make. /Rant over


So why are we still industry leading in fume events?

“I also send that email every single time the air can't keep up with the OAT. I make $210/flight hour, so about $150/hr in uniform, they make $12/hr. Our job is seniority based, they can go flip burgers at the King tomorrow for the same pay/benefits. Who should be more invested to keep this company profitable?”

Agree, I like clean pca air vs fume ridden apu air. It’s nice to sit in a 72 degree cockpit without the apu running. Am I alone?

Also for noise during preflight...

Completely agree.

Sounds like a Sisyphean exercise to me. One can only push a boulder up a hill for so long.

If I had a dollar for every email I have sent to fuel burn and still see no action on those same air carts, ramp performance, etc...I wouldn’t need profit sharing, I would be rich.

Industry leading in fume events? Based on what data is this derived from?

“Get your ass in gear and do your job”. Well that’s exactly my point. You’re the one running down to the ramp to do the rampers job to have them hook air and power up.

I’m glad you’re a go getter but I can tell you this, until true change is wanted from the top, it won’t change. Spirit could have a ramp supervisor walk up and down the line to ensure ground air is up and power is avail on every arrival, they don’t. Instead to tell the pilots to email them with issues and count on guys to run down to tell a supervisor when we are supposed to turn the APU on. Do you think it’s even a little concerning that a supervisor doesn’t even know that we don’t turn the APU on until 10 prior. If the company wanted to truly effect change, guys on the ground would know that information, they would be trained.

You are labor. The company doesn’t view you as a partner in this airline. This was made plain and clear in contract negotiations when profit sharing was shot down early. You are labor. I’m fine with that, I’ll preform as labor and not as a partner. And while you’re running down to ask for air, the company is creating another false dispute against trip rigs that we have to fight to keep in front of an arbitrator.

^ This guy knows what's up.

We're going to need a new MEC in the next go around. We could use you.

For its maintenance operation, which new technologies have caught Spirit’s eye?

There are a couple of things, but whether they are new or not is debatable. We’ve invested in some applications of new technology. One is called the Aero Tracer, a device that can detect types of leakage on the aircraft, whether it is from hydraulics, oil or deicing fluid getting up into bleed ducts. One of the emerging things in the industry now is dealing with onboard odors and fumes, and the Aero Tracer has been helpful in detecting exactly what is leaking. We’ve also found new applications to apply the Aero Tracer at different points in the aircraft pneumatic system to help isolate where a leak is coming from. Also, we applied borescope equipment to that same problem, and we’re finding ways to take this equipment and place it in areas between engines, APUs and aircraft ducts to look for signs of leakage. Budget has also been approved to transition to tablet technology for our technicians. We expect to complete the migration from paper to tablets in the middle of 2020.

https://www.mro-network.com/airlines...ility-decision