shoo shoo little bird...back to your regional jet right seat....

Your lack of knowledge on the matter is ridiculous. Your argument isnt even logical, its humorous. "Everyone on this forum is now dumber from having listed to it, I award you no points"

Where I will make more money in the next year than your new hires....:D

Yeah, but they’ll smoke you years 2-30+

I wonder how much the senior guys at those 90/hr first year shops sacrificed for their new hires. Think they could have hit 300 an hour for narrowbody if they made the new guys pay their dues? Why was it important to them not us?

CAL and UAL had their FOs at $29 and $33 before they saw $91. They got to $91 with maturing their contract and a booming business environment. Spirit will follow suit if the business model keep rolling along.

It really seems that the majority of you guys are missing the reality of this...This contract is signed and done. Regardless of what you wanted it to be or not, its done.

Going forward we hope all longevity will continue to see raises. There is no reason why first year FO pay wont get bumped much higher next go around, just like there is no reason why senior CAs wont see close to/at/above $300/hr next go around. The point is, its not the job of the senior pilot to ask for less to make it happen. All longevity should see benefits in pay and work rules. But facts are facts...a new hire getting hired today is making more than one hired 2 years ago. That is an improvement, it was a large one, and it should continue next contract as well.

Anyways..im over it. Guys can home here if they want or wait for the next contract for higher first year pay. I dont think we have 1 pilot on property today in the left seat that wishes they held out for higher first year pay. People make their choices, people have their opinions, and the sun will rise tomorrow and ExCargoDog will do a E175 cold walkaround in BFE at 4am, thinking how airline "woke" he is.

I know of a few, I’m guessing you aren’t one of them.



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Aren’t you at Compass? At least our new hire don’t have have to worry about Delta taking half of our airplanes.

We don’t have to worry. That is exactly what’s already happening. :D

That being said, I’m looking forward to starting class here next month.

Drop your whole schedule and deliver pizzas instead, until you're on second year pay.

Not kidding. Did it. Wife made more in a weekend at consignment sales than I did flying. Current contract is better than old one but you can still do the math and figure out if your secondary job pays out more or less during first year.

One of the first lessons I was taught in the 121 biz - first year pay is on the company, not the union. Don't expect anything first year and you won't be disappointed. Most places, it's worth sticking it out and doing a side hustle to make ends meet first year. In vegas, there ought to be *something* you can do during your off time to make your budget work.

If first year pay is a major determining factor in your calculus then you’re probably the kind of guy who only uses “monthly payment” numbers to figure out if he can afford a car or not.

Do I wish it was higher? As a NH myself, of course I do. Do I want the union to spend negotiating capital on it? No.

Longball.

But hey, go and count your extra money on those 5 legs days dude.

Little hard to do now when new hires won’t hold a line till at least 7-9 months.

You must be including time in the schoolhouse because FLL has very very short times for guys to sit on reserve.

The plug for November was an early September 18 hire.

You're telling highly skilled professional aviators to go deliver pizzas, because it pays better than Spirit. :D

Just make sure that Pizza Hut knows you've got a 3 hour Call out, while making that 30 minute delivery. Because Reserves are now prisoners to their schedule and can only drop one block of Reserve Days per year.

Are you that new to this industry? “Highly skilled professional aviators” have been delivering pizzas for years. And while you’re at Dominos, waiting for the next delivery, you can have a chat with your coworker who is a highly skilled PhD and the cashier who is a highly skilled thespian about is trying for a acting career.

How did CAL and UAL FOs get by in 2008 at 29 and 33 bucks an hour and no health insurance for 6 months! They eventually improved on those numbers as will we.

I have nothing but respect for the person who realizes that in order to pay the bills, you do what’s necessary to get it done; instead on whining about what’s not fair and how highly skilled you are.

“You get what you pay for.”

That’s actually a best case scenario. Sometimes you get a whole lot less.

When first year pay - counting time in the schoolhouse - is actually LESS than the first year pay at most regionals - and you are headed into an era of higher pilot demand and less supply, when even the military services are offering big bonuses for their flyers to stick around, you are foolish if you don’t realize what will eventually come of treating your newbies like cr@p.

It doesn’t matter what you got paid a decade ago...or even three years ago. Who knows when you might get another contract, or how much farther this already embarrassingly low pay will compare to what the market is paying then. If you aren’t competitive then you are going to get the dregs. Do you seriously think some of these regional managements are doing $50K signing bonuses or paying for RTP hours for guys out of the goodness of their hearts? They are paying what the market is forcing them to pay.

You can reminisce all you want about what you got paid and it is just as irrelevant as old timers talking about their learning to fly in a $3000 Tri-Pacer burning eight gallons an hour of 80-87 that cost them 60 cents a gallon. H€||, there was a time you could buy the whole of Manhattan Island for $24 worth of trinkets too. But that time ain’t now.

"Come to Spirit. We've got Flow agreements with Pizza Hut, Domino's, and Papa John's."

Man, it's 2019/nearly 2020 now. Not the horrible economic times of 2008-9. You don't need to constantly reference horrible times to justify the Spirit contract. However, to that point, you're right; in 2008-9 this would have been a stellar contract and applicants would have been flocking to Spirit for the 45% gain.

The larger point being to pay your bills however you have to until the pay comes up, and not to sit at a regional because you’re some by god professional aviator who’s too good to work a side hustle.

We can talk about what it should be, but what’s being suggested is how to make it on what it is. Some will have to work a side job. Some have spouses with good incomes. Some finance it.

I personally laughed when our absentee CEO suggested that our quick upgrade will be enough to continue to attract talent given the looming hiring binge at the legacies on the recent earnings call. As if one can’t upgrade in 3-5 years at Delta or United right now. He strikes me as the wait until problems happen kind rather than the get out in front of them type. But that issue is lurking and will have to be addressed.

A mid contract adjustment for new hires wouldn’t shock me in the least before we ratify in 2029 or whatever.

Well said.

Filler

2008 pay was negotiated prior to the economic fall of 2008, years before. So times were still good.

Hahahahahaha!!!!!

“Highly skilled thespian”. LMAO!

You’ve now lost all credibility in debates. 😂😁

And there you go, let the company come to the union for a mid contract addition to first year pay to attract new hires, not the company wanting a trade off during section 6 for higher pay.

I do wonder if the union would agree to this however. IF the company needs to increase pay to staff planes, I dont imagine the MEC would agree to let them have this while dragging out the rest of the contract Section 6 talks.

Haha...thespian is to actor as what "professional aviator" is to pilot. The fancier sounding the title is best when making a point about the higher pay they deserve.

I'll take your word for it because I just don't know enough about those rates, but even you must agree that arguing that current Spirit rates are better than what was negotiated in the mid 2000s is a silly comparison.

What is happening at the regionals today as described above is exactly why the union doesn't bother with expending negotiating capital on new hires. The market will correct without union intervention when the labor supply is squeezed. It's not fair and you don't have to like it, but it is reality. You can either figure it out and make it work, or wait it out (at the expense of seniority) until the market corrects. YOU have to decide what is worth more to you, seniority now or more money later on.

Totally your call, hoss.

It wasn't my point and has not been my point.

Even for 2008 standards, those pay rates were low but pattern bargaining has raised those rates to where they are today, $90 or so. Im not saying "Hey, our guys get paid more than CAL did in 2008." Im saying they had low pay in the not too distant past and were able to raise it through some successful Section 6 bargaining.

Spirit will do the same and just as CAL looks back at the rates of 20008 and says "Jeez, that first year pay and heathcare delay was junk," I believe we will be able to look back eventually and say, just as they did, "Wow, that first year pay and healthcare delay was junk." Legacy carriers increased all rates across the board and never did any of those airlines campaign on "we will sacrifice from the top to increase the bottom." It was always "All longevity will see increases to reflect their contributions."

Zero chance ALPA will ever campaign on the idea of cutting from the top to subsidize the bottom; that mantra has always been to raise pay at all levels; some things can't be accomplished in one contract cycle. And just as we have pilots who were upset we are not Delta and a 16% DC from day 1, it takes more than one cycle to hit all those things. And as long as the Minstrel CEO doesnt sink the airline, we will see great gains next go around. Maybe too some of our apathetic pilots can actually get out this time and march for an hour on a day off.

Its back and forth but we all agree, there is zero reason why at the end of the next cycle we dont see FOs at triple digit first year pay and senior CAs making significantly more as well.

Here’s a Q:

So if you bid “last out” on reserve I assume you could expect to have at least some of those reserve days at home. Can you pick up normal trips out of open time on your days off, and have those go above guarantee?

For example you’re on reserve you’re getting 72 hours no matter what. And say you pick up 20 hours of flying on your days off. That’s a 92 hour pay check right? And yes I’m aware that this plan can backfire if they use you on all your reserve days.

Also, how often are these X/Y calls occurring? Isn’t it extremely rare?

And just to add my 2 cents to the first year pay. Yeah it won’t knock your socks off but it’s a small price to pay to be joining such a great company that offers great pay a few years down the road and a good pilot group to boot. Any regional guy turning this place down over first year pay is a clown in my book. The QOL and pay at regionals is a joke.

So if you bid “last out” on reserve I assume you could expect to have at least some of those reserve days at home. Can you pick up normal trips out of open time on your days off, and have those go above guarantee?

You can't pick up any normal time on reserve.

For example you’re on reserve you’re getting 72 hours no matter what. And say you pick up 20 hours of flying on your days off. That’s a 92 hour pay check right? And yes I’m aware that this plan can backfire if they use you on all your reserve days.

If they fly you above guarantee or you get some move up pay (1.5 hours per day) for a pairing you'll be paid whatever extra over guarantee.

Also, how often are these X/Y calls occurring? Isn’t it extremely rare?

Summer is good for it, weather events, meltdowns, etc. However, you're on a master list for the year that tracks your premium credit earned, and as you earn more premium, you go further down the list. Then you're relying on those above you on the X/Y lists to turn down the phone call for you to get it.

And just to add my 2 cents to the first year pay. Yeah it won’t knock your socks off but it’s a small price to pay to be joining such a great company that offers great pay a few years down the road and a good pilot group to boot. Any regional guy turning this place down over first year pay is a clown in my book. The QOL and pay at regionals is a joke.

We've beat this to death on this thread, but almost all of of us think this is a career airline, not simply a stepping stone for year one pilots.

Oh ouch so you can’t pick up anything at all on your days off to credit higher unless you’re a line holder ? :confused:

Nope.

I’m sure it’s to ensure it’s to prevent pilots picking up on their days off in order to not be legal or contractual for assignments on reserve.

But you are eligible for premium trips; so it’s IF they need you.

Under the old contract you could not pick up on days off either

Ah so you could still X/Y list on reserve then?

Yes, but it would have to be a very specific trip to get called as most off periods between RAPs are 4 days, and they won’t risk interfering with a reserve period if they can help it.

You might get called a bit for seat support as a first year guy if you avail yourself to the training center. 4 hours of pay and some extra sim time. Those opportunities went away when I hit second year pay.

5th year Capt pay is 206/Hr. If you credit 100 hrs a month every month that’s $247,200. So tell us all how your getting well north of 250k? Not saying your lying but just trying to make sense of the math.

We can pick up open time at 200%.

Understood. So every single month you can get that much 200% flying? Only select trips are 200% and they come and go month to month. So let’s say you start with 75 to 78 hours. To get “well north of 250k” it still seems almost impossible. To get well above 250k you would have to be working your tail off and getting very lucky really often.

There are captains who live in base in MCO who made over 150 hours per month every month of the summer. It is achievable. It's pretty rare though.

The staffing push will probably suppress premium pay quite a bit going forward.

100 hours a month is pretty easy to do, even in the slow months. Yeah, you work for it, but it’s available if you want it.

It’s the summer months where things get interesting. Chaos breeds opportunities. Sometimes lots of opportunities.

I’d say 120-150 is pretty typical, and I’ve even broken 200 once. Granted, that month might have been a fluke, but I know guys who are centrally located in Florida; they Y list themselves for FLL, RSW, TPA, MCO and their phone don’t stop ringing. 220+ on more than one occasion. Supposedly ACY has one of these guys as well. PHL, EWR, LGA, and ACY all fall under his 3 hour driving radius...

Increased staffing has been brought up, and indeed that might affect things moving forward; at this point it’s too early to tell because Guitar Hero didn’t start properly staffing this airline until after the summer crush. So with that in mind, I’d be happy to revise my original statement; while my W2 was well north of $250k, moving forward I’d say ballpark of $250k is readily achievable on fifth year pay.

And that doesn’t even factor in the DC, should one choose to include that number into their calculations.

Living in base, or close to multiple Spirit destinations, makes all the difference in the world. If you call Billings Montana home, not so much.

I was well north of $250k last year and that of course included the signing bonus. So for 2019 I figured “hey, if I can make $200k, since no bonus, that would be easy to do”

Based on this last months credit, which will be the last month of credit earned for 2019, my $200k goal is looking to settle at $280k

But how....how is that possible, show me the math?!

Same as mentioned before. We had a few months of summer x list calls. So averaging 100+ a month isn’t hard when you have a few months on 170 and 180.

Next year I’ll say “ok, staffing won’t be as short, so $225k would be a nice number”. But the one thing I know about Spirit, the next meltdown is just around the corner. So I won’t be shocked if in 1 year I’m saying “well north of $250k and knocking on $300k”