Airline Pilot Central Forums - United v. Spirit

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- - United v. Spirit (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/spirit/133967-united-v-spirit.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDHD (Post 3246580)

I’m curious how spirit will do as labor costs rise. Seems they used to thrive on high turnover (I.e junior, cheaper pilot group) which has all but stopped in recent years. Will be interesting to see if they can maintain those low cost fares with industry standard labor pay.

Spirit saves on all labor and on every other aspect of the operation. While we are the largest labor cost at the airline, still small when it comes to running the airline. This is much different than a regional where labor is the only cost and the only thing to be managed down for increased profit. This is important for those coming from RJs to understand. We are a cost but success or failure of the airline doesn’t hinge on the pilot contract at this level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot (Post 3246819)

To come back to my original comment. I meant to imply the change in rates without the change (negatively) in QOL. I think we are all on the same page when it comes to receiving seat to seat comparable rates. Last time it was a mediator limit. Hopefully next time around there won’t (read shouldn’t) be such a barrier. Either way, QOL needs to remain the same or preferably better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDHD (Post 3246580)

In the short term any rapidly growing organization benefits from the rather large percentage of people at the low end of the scale. PreCOVID early retirements some of the legacies would have had 6-7% of their pilots hitting mandatory retirement annually and will soon be back to that. The average guy/gal there is well over 12 years tenure. PreCOVID NK and F9 were growing 15% per year. By definition that means half your pilots have less than five years tenure and that at a lower rate. Even were the pay scales identical to legacy pay scales (and they aren’t) personnel costs at those airlines would still be less there.

For an even starker contrast look at Breeze. With the exception of perhaps a handful of their pilots, pretty much everybody is on first year pay.

Over time if the airlines stop growing, contracts become similar, and pilot size eventually becomes static, that personnel advantage will eventually equalize, but the advantage will remain for at least a decade or two. NK was talking about hiring 400 pilots a year. It’ll be a DAMN long time before they are retiring anything like 400 pilots a year. Until they actually do hit a steady state (new hires approximately equaling retiring pilots) this advantage will persist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asiabound (Post 3241102)

Hey fellas just looking for some career advice here. Currently at an ACMI, and I'm looking to be better rested and not work as hard for my money. I have a lot of friends and acquaintances at both companies and it's likely that depending upon which path I take I have a decent chance of getting a call at one or both. I don't have 1000 TPIC yet (which UA requires), but I have some jet PIC from my previous corporate life, I meet all the other min req's for both airlines. I'm very close to upgrade at my current employer, but the job is brutal enough as an FO and even more so as a Captain. So I'm trying to make the decision... do I pull every string I have and try to see if I can get an interview with Spirit without the PIC, or should I hold out and get the PIC time and go for a Legacy? Not trying to come off as conceited, neither might call me, just playing the hypotheticals here. Are there any former ACMI guys at NK that can weigh in?

The people I know at Spirit seem really happy, but there's one old acquaintance I heard left for UPS. I've also read on these forums of Spirit pilots leaving for Delta and UA. How does the narrow-body QOL compare between them? I know the pay is less, especially on the high end of the pay scale (comparing the A320 Spirit vs. A320 UA). I know you guys have a lot of good work rules, like min of 4 days between trips etc. Why do pilots leave Spirit for a Legacy? Is it just to eventually fly a widebody and make $300+/hour or is there something else I'm missing? How does the retirement compare?

My personal situation, I'm married with a young family and just turned 40, so the 20 days on the road per month is getting old. I dig flying the widebody, but I've flown all over the planet and would be fine with never flying one again, been there done that. It would really spice up my resume to put widebody PIC on it, but being a junior Captain at my company is probably one of the most brutal jobs in industry right now. I currently live in TX and have lived in FL before. I love both states so basing is mostly irrelevant as I'd be willing to move.

I appreciate your responses. I know there's no "clear" right answer. What are your thoughts?

One last question: What overnights do NK pilots have in South America? Is it only Lima?

Formeer ACMI here. Now at NK. IMO you wont be aboe to time the industry or be certwin who will call you (if they call you). Send app to both. I have loved NK so far, but UA might be great too... and surely more money.
1. You dont care a bout equipment/routes... then UA/NK no difference.
2. Money: UA better than NK, but if 10k per month are not enough 20k wont be either. My point here is you wont need to get a side job in your days offf at NK (probably also not at retirement). But if you definitely want that extra approx 10% then you have to seek a legacy.
3. QOL: NK is great. Dont know about UA. Ask your friends at both. We hve grat rules and can drop down to zero per month so you can work yourself rhisnmotnh and take it off next.... thats huge IMO.
4: domicile: you sre willing to relocate-ok, but whats your number 1 option.
5 uograde at NK sooner than UA that menas more money sooner--- will it outweight UA payscales... maybe/ maybe not...

at the end eveything comes down to QOL.
IMO there is never a definite answer for this question.... if you lived in ATL I wouldnt hesitate to say that the best airline is DL.... IAH/ewr UA..... FLL JBLU/NK....
To each its own

right now everything is different with covid, but we do have LIM as layover

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benver (Post 3250226)

Is your keyboard broken?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halon1211 (Post 3246414)

no, that’s not what I’m saying. I have had people on here telling me that wide body pilots at legacies don’t make anymore than narrow body pilots.

Just a little bit of insight from UA but traditionally our highest earners were narrow body Captains that played the system. The widebody flying has the prestige and the better hotels. It hoovers the very senior off of the narrow body fleets allowing more "junior" people to do quite well and bid a higher % in their seat. The narrowbody fleets have much smaller trips that you can piecemeal into a very productive schedule that just isn't possible on the widebodies. Living in base allows you to pick up premium pay and work less days for the same pay at pretty much any airline.

The best thing about United is the fleet mixes and different flying. You can experiment and see different types of flying from island hopping Guam, to polar flying, or short and long Europe. The comments about flying with grumpy ex-mil aren't true but we do have militant pro-union people and a more pronounced union than I think I was expecting. I left a LCC to come here and uniteds domestic operation only feels like a small part of the airline. The international and widebody flying is a completely new and fun to learn side of the airline for most of us. We are a small cog in a much bigger machine where we just fly the plane. Flight attendants handle most everything before it comes to us, maintenance/dispatch/scheduling all just work, and any reasonable expense will be reimbursed (aka your not waiting for hotels/vans/meals). I do feel like a professional when I come to work. At smaller airlines I felt that they relied on pilots to chase down and beat the square peg into the round hole to make things come together. Best of luck with your decision!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaticus (Post 3254583)

our highest earners were narrow body Captains that played the system.

i’m sure everything you are saying is correct, but I’m not talking an outlier, I’m talking about an apples to apples comparison.

I know CKA here at Spirit that make far more than an average Delta captain but they play the system too...picking up extra sim sessions, etc.

I know a AA 777 captain (pre-COVID) that flys DFW-HKG that’s about 17 one way. 34ish on one trip. Now do the math, how much do you think that guy make in a month at $342/hour and how many days off/month. Versus a narrow body guy making $278/hour. Again comparing minimum guarantee or some thing normal. Not working the system.

The hotels at United are top notch. They definitely put their pilot crews up in nice hotels.

What are upgrade times at United compared to Spirit?

Spirit's is at about 4 years now I believe after the 2020 shenanigans.