United v. Spirit
 

Hey fellas just looking for some career advice here. Currently at an ACMI, and I'm looking to be better rested and not work as hard for my money. I have a lot of friends and acquaintances at both companies and it's likely that depending upon which path I take I have a decent chance of getting a call at one or both. I don't have 1000 TPIC yet (which UA requires), but I have some jet PIC from my previous corporate life, I meet all the other min req's for both airlines. I'm very close to upgrade at my current employer, but the job is brutal enough as an FO and even more so as a Captain. So I'm trying to make the decision... do I pull every string I have and try to see if I can get an interview with Spirit without the PIC, or should I hold out and get the PIC time and go for a Legacy? Not trying to come off as conceited, neither might call me, just playing the hypotheticals here. Are there any former ACMI guys at NK that can weigh in?

The people I know at Spirit seem really happy, but there's one old acquaintance I heard left for UPS. I've also read on these forums of Spirit pilots leaving for Delta and UA. How does the narrow-body QOL compare between them? I know the pay is less, especially on the high end of the pay scale (comparing the A320 Spirit vs. A320 UA). I know you guys have a lot of good work rules, like min of 4 days between trips etc. Why do pilots leave Spirit for a Legacy? Is it just to eventually fly a widebody and make $300+/hour or is there something else I'm missing? How does the retirement compare?

My personal situation, I'm married with a young family and just turned 40, so the 20 days on the road per month is getting old. I dig flying the widebody, but I've flown all over the planet and would be fine with never flying one again, been there done that. It would really spice up my resume to put widebody PIC on it, but being a junior Captain at my company is probably one of the most brutal jobs in industry right now. I currently live in TX and have lived in FL before. I love both states so basing is mostly irrelevant as I'd be willing to move.

I appreciate your responses. I know there's no "clear" right answer. What are your thoughts?

One last question: What overnights do NK pilots have in South America? Is it only Lima?

DELTA...............j/k it all depends, nobody can give you the right answer. Spirit is awesome, UAL I’m sure is awesome. In a nutshell I’d say Spirit will offer more time at home, UAL will offer more money.



FYI
UAL absolutely does not require 1,000hrs TPIC.

Appreciate that.

Wish I could offer more insight but we have a TON of former ACMI guys who will chime in and give you more insight

Are you a woman or a person of color? If not, I'd settle for Spirit :)

Personally, unless your deadset on flying anything bigger than a 321 again I’d go to whomever gives you a CJO first. I know plenty of qualified people who never got the call from either. IMO can’t go wrong with NK or UA.

If you want to wait for a legacy, you can just as easily do that at Spirit. That is to say, you don't have to stay at your ACMI either way.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Fair point, but I'm 40 not 30 and I'm hoping to retire at 60 (maybe I'm crazy for saying that out loud). If I was in class tomorrow at NK I would probably be in the top 10-15? percent seniority-wise by then, but it would probably be what? 4-5 years from now to reach 1000 PIC as CA at Spirit? By that point if I made the jump, I would be pushing 45 and would probably be only 50% on the UA list when I turned 60. I guess what I'm saying is I'm looking for what gets me the better QOL in the shorter term. Plus I hate starting at the bottom and really only want to do it one more time, unless I don't have a choice of course.

really? I don’t know the spirit schedules that well, but even prior to the world melting down we had many widebody reserves going months without going to work other than landings classes.

For the first ten years the money will be a push, although the QOL will be better at Spirit and getting a Florida base will be as simple as not actively trying to avoid one. That’s only because you’ll likely upgrade quicker. After that the money will be better at UA. A 12 year CA at UA is making $31 an hour more plus 1% more of the larger salary 401k contribution.

Although realize that when you upgrade at either you’ll take a real hit to QOL from senior FO if you aren’t living in base, so if TX or FL is a must, that may play into your decision.


Probably not. Due to the relative youth of the pilot group NK has a small fraction of the retirements UA has coming. Prior to COVID they were expanding 15% per year with very few retirements.
​​​​​​​

I can't imagine UA having better QOL, especially in the short term, but I was wrong once before, so I'm kinda due...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

I don't think he's talking about not being called while sitting reserve. I think he's talking about schedule flexibility, such as dropping half of your trips or down to 0. When you want more time at home.

Or sitting airport ready at UAL....

This is what I was referring to.

If you have friends at both ask them their advice. Don’t ask us. 99.999% of the folks here haven’t worked for United. I don’t think you’ll be in the top 10-15% at spirit by age 50 FYI and probably far far from it. Also, United doesn’t require 1,000 TPIC. Folks have left spirit for United and regretted it. Folks have left spirit for United and never looked back. No one has voluntarily left United for spirit.

I'm an NK guy. Been here for just under 2 years. I actually have a seniority chart comparing leaving for UAL vs staying at NK. With only 20 years of time left (you saying you will retire at 60), your seniority will be better at NK. If you stay until 65, your seniority would actually be better at 65. This is taking a few things into consideration. It takes into consideration spirit only ends up with 300 airplanes and UAL stays it's same size. For the first half of my career I would be much more senior staying at NK but for the last like 15 years of my career due to retirements, I'd be way more senior at UAL. Idk how to post pictures on here. Maybe I can PM to someone if they want to see for themselves.

Not sure if UA can do it or not, but the ability to drop to 0 is pretty amazing. My vote is NK if you truly view FL and TX as equal. Plus they offer bases in each (DFW, FLL, MCO) and FL will get you a solid QOL quicker than anywhere I've seen. Interviewed 2020BC (before Covid) and that was the happiest group of part-time employees I've ever met. All on 50+ days off racing to see who could fly the least by the end of the year. If you're wanting time with family, I would recommend NK all day.

Personally I’d rather be here.

living in base is what really matters.

besides that, I’d rather be here. I spent my whole life wanting to fly widebody for UA, including my whole regional career. Came here, and haven’t updated my UA app since because I honestly can’t believe how great my QOL is.

Fast growth, profitable company, good, young and reasonable captains, well-maintained brand new jets, and a (precovid) 2.5 year upgrade… yeah I’d definitely rather be here. I regularly fly with CA’s hired 4 years ago that hold a great line, make 300 a year(precovid), and get 16+ days off. Not to mention the incredible ability to drop flying all you want.

compare that to slinging gear for 10 years for mostly gray-haired ex-mil jerks that have been in the left seat since 1990 :( but hey you’ll get to fly a big airplane and eat hot meals

LIM, GYE, CLO, BOG... At least that was before COVID.

FLL base does most of them. But I have seen a good chunk (and done myself) out of MCO, DFW, DTW, and ACY

I couldn’t agree more.

I'm old and reasonable.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

I’m young and unreasonable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No doubt. Soon all you’ll need is XX chromosomes and you’re hired.

Even better is that the above quote isn’t inflammatory, they have stated as much.

I believe HB took his last UAL bypass to remain at Spirit. Last I checked, he was doing pretty well as a check airman here.

To the OP. This dude absolutely nailed it and said what I was going to say.

With our current order for 150 airplanes, in the next 5-6 years, there will be continuous hiring and upgrades until the last A/C shows up.

I’ve been here just over 2 years and (if not for Covid) would have upgraded end of this year. Now it will be middle of next. Oh well.

The ability to drop to 0 and the schedule flexibility cannot be beat. Even when I was the most junior line holder I’m still able to make my schedule EXACTLY how I need it. I have a very good friend at United. He cannot do what I do with my schedule.

I did not renew my AApps account this past fall.

Finally in 2019 (full year before Covid) we only had 24ish pilots leave for other airlines. That doesn’t happen by accident. By and large this is a great group of pilots who are happy here.

This is my 4th and last airline. Hands down the easiest and best job I’ve had in my career.

Thanks everyone for the input. To the guy that called me out for "just asking my friends at each carrier," you got me. I'm actively in touch with 4+ people in Spirit with many more acq. but I only know two at UA, 777FO and a 737FO, I don't know any A320 FOs there.

This information has helped my wife and I a lot in our decision making. :)

Technically, he didn't leave UAL voluntary, but he did choose to stay here over returning....

I would guess (at least) half the pilots on the NK list are younger than you, so to get to the top 10% Spirit needs to grow to 5 times the size it is now with 13K pilots. Not impossible, but for seniority progres nothing beats people above you retiring...
When I got hired here I had 20 years to go, and 30% of the group would retire before me. For AA in the same time frame 97% retirements, and UAL 90%. I love it here, but for seniority I would think UA is better. UAL has 12K pilots and between 2022 and 2042 just over 10K retirements. Even if you don't get hired until 2026, still over 8K retirements, so ZERO growth you would be at 33% relative seniority, and because of WB flying a very senior NB captain.

Don’t split hairs. He could have gone back, he wanted to remain a Spirit pilot, right? He could have gone back with his UAL seniority and still decided to stay. At this point, with all his bypasses, he is/could be, holding CA, and chose to stay here

Not splitting anything. I already acknowledged he chose not to go back, but there is a real difference between leaving a position on a seniority list voluntary or getting furloughed.

DFW is a stagnant pond unfortunately. AA has made it their number one priority to limit NK as much as possible. Frankly, I think they should be focused on fixing their subpar product rather than worrying about us but I'm not in charge over there. Expect to see the vast majority of our growth in FLL, MCO, and LAS. Your QOL as an FO or a Captain would be far, far better in FL. LAS has an affinity for Batman hours which I prefer to avoid at all costs.

Our product is getting better (still a long ways to go) but we do it for a fraction of the ticket price of the Guppy Kool-Aid Guys. I can easily see NK at 600+ airframes in the next 10-15 years. We have very few retirements but the growth potential is second to no one.

But, like someone else said, take the first offer you get and go learn the jet. Good luck!

this reply scares me. what is that supposed to mean?

That scares you??

You know exactly what he is referring to (if you don’t live under a rock) and probably looking for a reason to be triggered, right?

nope theres a few angles here so enlighten me please.
not kidding.

https://hub.united.com/2021-04-06-united-sets-new-diversity-goal-50-of-students-at-new-pilot-training-academy-to-be-women-and-people-of-color-2651374725.html

Apparently it was the rock option.

If you scare this easily maybe this isn't the career for you...

oh dear your not one of these Q anon people who think that if minorities are trained to be pilots that your value in society has fallen below your status quo standard?

nah just curious how awful the pilot base was here.

I don’t think he’s saying that. I kind of agree with him that it’s unfair to give someone extremely preferential hiring based off the color of their skin or their gender. Let pilots be hired on an equal and fair playing friend. More diversity would be awesome, but let’s go about it the right way if you ask me. Awareness, early outreach, scholarships, stuff like that; rather than hire someone with half the “normal” experience/drive because you’re trying to hit a diversity quota. :rolleyes:

Really hoping this comment doesn’t start a political discussion. I genuinely would love to see more diversity in flight decks :D