Best option for NK pilot group?
 

Putting aside the actual sale price of NK, which option do you think is best for the pilot group?

JetBlue Take Over?
Frontier Merger?
Neither, go it alone?

I don’t think staying independent is going to be a thing anymore. Once the toothpaste comes out of the tube… etc. I can not fathom why anyone would prefer Frontier at this point. We know what Franke is and isn’t. Who wants to go back to that? Sure the F9 merger would probably go a little smoother but is it worth it? Further negotiations would be an absolute grind. JCBA woof starting point would be at current F9/NK rates. JCBA with B6 starting point would be b6 rates. That is already a big step up for Nk pilots and Hayes has already been on record saying rates need to increase. From a financial/stock holder pov it’s a slam dunk for b6. People talking about future values of stock… lol. Deals aren’t negotiated in perceived future value. How long will it be until the F9 would be more value for shareholders? A year? 5 years? Never? No one knows. I also believe DFW, ORD, and DTW are more likely to be in the picture with B6. This should be an absolute no brainer for all involved.

One would think. I don't know if it's ignorance or naivety for those who support having anything to do with F9. God help us all if we go down that path.

I think it has to do with him being a known quantity. Franke is an incredibly smart business man. He has a vision of making money. He’s very good at it, but it’s at the expense of those that work for him. Lots of unknown with JetBlue. Change is good. Give me the step up to B6 instead of a lateral/slight step back with F9.

Just desperately trying to hold on to their seniority.

Funny thing about that too, is there's a big misconception that being the bigger airline somehow guarantees them better sonority. Just not true. Both sides of either merger are going to have wins and losses for either airline.

There's really NO benefit from a pilots perspective to work for F9 over B6. A few common "benefits" I hear are that our business models are similar... which means absolutely nothing from a pilots perspective up front in the flight deck. Or if B6 gets us that we're going to be commuting to the NE. Closing bases is completely counter-intuitive to what B6 is trying to do here. This is a quick growth move by JB. They'll need the gates, routes, planes, pilots, MX facilities, training facilities, etc. that are already in place at NK.

We'll make greater overall compensation with B6. Better QOL, route structure (Europe and more), nicer product, crew meals, Dunkin coffee, on and on.

OR with F9 we could fight to get current B6 pay rates, get called in for carpet dances for calling out sick, micromanaged, etc. No thank you.

This is essentially how my line of thinking falls as of now.

B6 is the better option both in the short and long term.

That would strike me more as a glitch than a feature. 😂

B6 has older pilots, it makes sense to merge with them and see them retire before you do.

It’s funny because all the guys (I’ve noticed) that are complaining about losing seniority are 20 plus year guys that are already super senior. “I was hired here before b6 even started operations. I’ll be damned if any of them go in front of me on the list.” Lol k old timer.

Cool story neewb.

Can somebody tell me the benefits of merging with frontier?

Synergies….

200% bonus on annual salary for every C level guy at NK.

For you and me, half price snacks.

Synergies
Hard Stands in Denver
50% snacks
Section 19 meetings for using sick time
?
Profit

You must be pretty senior if you can exclusively hold trips that go to the top 5% captains. Like been here since 2016 senior.

Don't forget having vacations cancelled during negotiations.

no ****? That’s unreal. When was this?

Crazy thing is the same provision is in most contracts, including ours. I wouldn’t put it past Bendo to cancel vacations during one of their FO staffing meltdowns

Love this lose language

“The Company may not cancel a pilot's scheduled vacation. If Company operations necessitate the postponement of va-cations, the Company shall first solicit volunteers for such postponement. If there are insufficient volunteers for such postponement, the Company may make such postponements mandatory.”

We aren’t going to cancel it, just postpone it for no longer than 2 years from now. 🙄

Yeah, I know its in ours but to cancel vacations because they can’t effectively run an airline that they get paid MILLIONS(I’m assuming F9 Mgmt compensation is pretty high) for is just absolutely mindblowing. If only there was a way to attract and keep people.

Like anything there’s more to the story. Alpa pulled an loa that allowed pilots to pick up opentime with a phone call to crew scheduling after the contractual 930 day prior. Either side could withdraw with 2 weeks notice. Should have been pulled 2 years earlier but alpa didn’t want to be viewed as negotiating in bad faith potentially delaying mediated talks. Pulling vac was retaliatory. The data didn’t support the need to do it.

We were able to mitigate some of the damage with pilots stepping up and picking up trips from pilots that lost vacation through the trade board.

I don’t really feel like pulling out the contract but we added some language that basically makes it more difficult and expensive for them to do it. They still can though. A good mitigation strategy is actually take your summer vacation and buy non refundable everything. Makes it even more expensive for them to pull it.

Anyone has spirit mandatory retirement list?

filler....

SPA-MEC website has numbers of retirements each year

Well I tried uploading an image of it, its not working very well tho.

Year Retirements
2022 - 6
2024 - 6
2025 - 27
2026 - 28
2027 - 41
2028 - 30
2029 - 32
2030 - 43
2031 - 47
2032 - 43
2033 - 46
2034 - 37
2035 - 45
2036 - 44
2037 - 50
2038 - 46
2039 - 37
2040 - 46
2041 - 42
2042 - 55
2043 - 51
2044 - 58
2045 - 69
2046 - 61
2047 - 72
2048 - 61
2049 - 40
2050 - 45
2051 - 29
2052 - 19
2053 - 10

Nobody in 23? That should solve all the attrition woes!

yea 2023 is missing its showing 21 retirements in 2023

Hopefully the market has made a miraculous recovery for them by that time.

I'm surprised that no one is talking about the likelihood of a major slow down in progression if the B6 deal happens. I get we don't like the haunting experience of F9's management when they were here, or Barry's stupid comment about a pilot surplus (posturing), but an F9 merger has significantly more airplanes and growth ahead than does a B6 merger. Obviously we need to fix the attrition problem (which any idiot understands cannot continue if we are to meet our growth plans..or any growth) but aside from that anyone with 10 or more years left will likely see much better options and a better overall business model with the F9 merger.

MTC,
BP

Better options and a better business model? To who?

B6 has multiple fleet types and bid categories, that creates fleet stratification and faster upgrades.

I for one can’t wait to work for a CEO who thinks he has a “surplus” of pilots.

Indigo would never pull orders from Frontier and give them to another portfolio airline they control.

Go look at the B6 discussion about upgrade times. I think you'll find the reality quite different that what you state. If you think stagnation is bad now, a B6 merger will make it look like child's play.

does F9 have that much more growth? All those orders are indigos not frontiers. Jet blue has plenty of orders and so do we.

The current plan. This doesn’t include the orders for the other airlines.

Edit to add….We currently have 1750ish pilots. We need 1860ish to remain fully staffed by year end. Classes are around 50+ a month with a loss of 30ish a month due to attrition. So when BB said we are fully staffed he wasn’t lying…for now.

B6 is getting rid of the 190s. Those pilots will have to go somewhere. What do you think will happen to upgrade times once the 190s are phased out? 😬😬

I heard a wild rumor they already have A220's to replace them and even ordered a bunch more to replace the rest of the 190's...

Not sure how you came to this conclusion. JetBlue has aircraft on order, and I see no reason why they wouldn't take our current orders and add to the stack. They won't be buying us to stay locked in the north east. They are buying us to become a better version of Southwest.

The theme from some F9 fellows and a few NK, since this all started, has always been "have fun commuting to the NE" and "B6 will be stagnated, no progression if there should be a B6NK, go look at their thread" and other BS, as if they are convincing TIG and Vanguard lol

But to address those 2 quotes above.

1. B6 will not buy NK just to suck everything in the NE lol lol as much as they (F9) want y'all to believe that. In a pocket session, while covid was sucking everyones life out, it was evident mgmt realized being big in just the N.E really messed us up more than others. They want to have those bases where NK is right now. To think that B6 would get NK then force everyone to NY/BOS/EWR and close majority (if not all) bases is a very stupid idea. This is just an idea some of those on here cook up to make y'all feel like F9 deal is better for the pilots. It's an unrealistic idea, especially when its already so congested in the NE already plus the slot constraints in NY. Can't add more flights to JFK if ya don't have the slots (even with the NEA).

2. Ok the "no progression"
So they are judging today's B6 standalone (we do have progression) and assuming it will be the same when B6 gets NK. What?
The combined company will have more bases (see point 1 above) and a lot more aircrafts on order and there will be no progression? I can see that bullsheit argument from 35000ft.

More bases and more aircraft orders increases progression, not stop it. Folks can spread out easier in different bases and different status in those bases.

Look, I get it. Everyone has their own personal reason why they want it to go one way or the other. That's ok. But stop creating these crazy far fetch scenarios to justify your stance. All of a sudden, we care what's good for the people and we love Synergies and better business model lol stop all that nonsense. We wanna get paid, we control nothing else.

Nothing but the best for all of us, whichever way it goes. I'm B6 so I am biased but I'm not gonna make up some wild ass far fetched reason for liking the idea of the combination. For me, bigger company with more bases help with seniority in each base, which is good for pilots. And that's what I care about, my fellow pilots and QOL. The company can worry about running the business.