Moving On
 

I know plenty of folks are moving on right now, but I'm look for people who have been here a while and are older who have moved on. I have an offer at a legacy, and I need to make a decision as to whether or not to leave. I've been here about 10 years and have about 15 years left to retirement. If there is anyone else in a similar position any thoughts are appreciated, or anyone who has left how do you feel about your decision?

Not in this position and without knowing your personal situation, it’s hard to know. Would switching to a legacy have meaningful QOL implications? At least for me, that’s what it would come down to. If you’re a CA who currently drives to work, it’s probably not worth it. If you’re a commuter and switching meant driving to work, I’d do it in a heartbeat.

He's right. I'm in your same situation and believe me, I think about it every day. But then I think, "What's the best I'll do at a legacy, narrow body captain?". Then I realize it's not worth it. With our seniority we get any day off we want and the pay isn't that bad. It'll probably take you a few years to get back to the pay, and you may never get the schedule you want again if you decide to upgrade.

But if you commute and you can possibly drive, maybe that's worth it to you. Good luck.

Yep, seniority sort of traps you - and not necessarily in a bad way either. By the time you are off reserve as a CA, the payback for jumping to other opportunities becomes less and less and - depending on your age - might actually be a negative. The kicker is whether or not the JCBA (no matter who it is with) can hold the line (or even improve) on the QOL stuff NK has. And I doubt anyone will have a handle on that really for 18 mo to 2 years.

This is something I'm struggling with as well, although I've only been here 3 years. So I still haven't fully vested in the direct contribution, and I only have 10 years left. I also haven't upgraded yet and think it is 2 years away. I think anything that is announced will be a minimum of 2 years before we are that new airline, and negotiations for a contract would be a complete guess, and with any big change like this I see a lot of pain before it its smooth sailing. The management here has been focused on the merger, and less and less on running the airline. The attitude has quickly changed and from being a cohesive relationship to we don't really care if you leave.

On the other side, I'm worried about the economy and how it will affect the industry. Leaving now and being jr could mean furlough and further setbacks with only 10 years left, depending on the airline. If I was 10 years younger, I'd be gone. My situation is similar to the OP but with much less time to recover if something should go wrong, but less financial setbacks and seniority QoL loss.

All quite reasonable concerns. And the competence of those people in government to handle this, after so many wrong calls, isn’t a trivial concern either.

I think nearly everyone is struggling with this right now.

5 years on property at NK. Junior CA, eternal reserve and maybe displaced, albeit slowly, from my base. 22 years left to go. I pulled the handle and start elsewhere in a few days.

I figure 7-8 year break even and hope that seniority list movement will mitigate recession concerns moving forward. Hard choice. Didn’t want to leave, but I feel that waiting on the final outcome of whatever spirit will become will make me miss opportunities elsewhere. Maybe I’ll regret that and maybe I won’t. Check back in 2-3 years.

The wife has a good, secure job and has dug her heels into where we live. She’s not moving, I’m not commuting and I don’t want find out I’m a commuter in a few years when the legacies start hitting the tail end of their hiring waves.

A few year’s difference in age or seniority either way would have made the decision for me, but I struggled over this one in my current situation.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

If you can handle the UPS/FedEx schedules then I'd take a hard look there. You'll make more than an NK Captain on 2nd year FO pay at either and their top end is something we can only dream of.

My 100% honest opinion is that you made the correct choice. Enjoy the new gig and don't look back.

Hope so. Best of luck to you as well.

Dont all leave at once (please)
 

Was hired recently by NK and am coming from one of the regionals where the CA shortage has reached a point where lets just say reserve FOs dont fly. Any possibility of NK reaching a point like this? Seems like there's a lot of movement for various reasons. I know my QoL will be much better at NK regardless but should new hires expect much longer reserve times and possibly a CA shortage at NK moving forward?

It's the opposite here. Way too many CAs in every base and not enough FOs. If you want to fly on reserve as an FO, you will get your fill. There's not a ton of upward movement, but FOs from senior to junior are constantly jumping ship, so you should be able to hold a line in nearly every base within a year. The new bases should create some movement, too.

Almost the same situation for me. I was a 7 year line holding CA (for the time being) living in base, would have been back on RSV with the planned displacements. I didn’t want to gamble my next 27+ years that the base would even be around and turn me into a commuter for the rest of my career. The wife has a great job that would make it financial suicide to move if the base was shut down so I wouldn't have to commute. I never thought I would leave after Covid, but I too didn’t want to wait and see what happened. Ended up leaving in early June. It’s a tough decision that I struggled over. Good luck with whatever you choose.

I left early this year after completing 3 years at NK. I only have 14 years left and still think it was the right move. And I’m saying this now commuting to Global Reserve after living in base for Spirit. If you’re just after the money you can upgrade at UAL 2nd year and make already more than a year 12 NK CA. You can also delay your upgrade and stay in the right seat for a better schedule. It’s a very individual choice. Think about it but if you want to do it don’t wait too long…

Keep in mind you're only going to get the most pessimistic of responses on an internet forum where people love to complain (misery loves company), but you should have made up your mind on whether or not you would pull trigger the nanosecond after you finished interviewing at xyz legacy. The worst place you can be is sitting exactly where you are, with an offer in hand, and not knowing what to do with it.

It is in my best interest for you to move on since you're senior to me, but I think at this point if you don't know what you want then you should stay.

I know it sounds harsh, but I say this as someone who came into adulthood as a very indecisive person. Luckily I had a highly successful mentor who sat me down and helped me get through it.

You really think a 2nd yr CA at United is making more than our 12yr guys. Hourly rates aren't everything.

And to the OP, same spot here 15 yrs to go but I'm already sitting in the left seat making money. Did a spreadsheet and UPS is about the only place I'd go to make up for the lost $. Never bet on " you'll upgrade in 2 years" NOBODY has any idea how this industry will shake out.

Of course I know that hourly rates are not everything and that a12 year NK CA makes a lot of money. My point was that if you’re after the money it’s not too long until you have at least a similar salary. Not talking about QOL here.
I have a friend who is a 10 year NK CA with 20 years left and he’s making the move too. Everyone’s situation is different. I can fully understand if you want to stay at NK. I liked it there too a lot. It’s not easy to start over but in my view still worth given all the options you have at a legacy.

Care to share the parameters of your spreadsheet? Like years to upgrade, hours flown monthly etc? I’ve seen some guys here base their Spirit guarantee on 100 hour months “because I always fly that much” and just shake my head.

Thanks, if I was younger for sure I would go but with only about 15 years left and I’ve been here ten it’s hard to justify. I’ve been furloughed so I know there are no guarantees for anything including upgrades. My wife has crunched the numbers as well, the hard thing to put a number on is QOL. Sure in theory in a few years if I move I could make as much as I am now, but being 50 in a crash pad isn’t seeming fun anymore. Eventually I could get based back where we live but for how long is my QOL going to take a hit, and at my age is it worth taking a QOL hit.


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Always makes me laugh.. some can’t live off less.

Its an easier decision on CA reserve guarantee.

Reading the responses here has been really good for me. I have interviews at 2 legacies coming up. 2.5 year FO, 32 years left. It's just the drop and xlist lifestyle is so plentiful in ord right now and it's even better with a baby in the house, so I'm really going to be inconveniencing myself in the present but hopefully my future self thanks me. I'll definitely miss the schedule flexibility. My wife is excited for the travel benefits but I dunno how she's going to go with me getting short called into 4 days again.

If UA want me I think I'll be going.

Easy decision if you are an FO with 32 years left, I wouldn’t stay at spirit.


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You should leave ASAP, the premium flying won’t last forever. Especially as they downsize ORD. Every extra month you stay, is a month of seniority you’re giving up. With your age and only 2.5yrs here, it’s a no brained to leave.

Seriously in your position, in ORD, if UA calls you better be sprinting out the door. Good luck to you.

For the OP, check out the state of the economy. Housing is down another 20% last month, Portfolios are losing value, cost of goods is increasing. People aren’t going to go into bankruptcy because of bad loans, it will be because of total debt. Does everything “feel” like it’s in a good spot? Their is a tremendous amount of global instability and almost certainly a war is on the horizon (currently in a proxy war). Knowing that and that airlines hire until they furlough is also useful.

If you only have 15 yrs left, how would it feel spending 2 of those furloughed?

Best of luck to you, whatever you choose.

Done for Delta. 2 yr upgrade on the A220, 5th yr narrow body CA, 10th yr Widebody. I gross 100k more at delta over 15 yrs, but profit sharing could be anywhere from 250-350k more.
My problem is this was based on upgrade, what happens if the recession hits hard, age 67, unknown factors. I'm already in the left seat and making guaranteed money.

Riding it out here, despite roughly 30yrs remaining. Could absolutely eventually make more with a legacy, but we are living comfortably off of minimum guarantee & have less than a decade before kid is flown. Living in base with great QOL goes a long way.

I was bidding roughly 48% in DFW when I left in September and had the same concerns. I was dropping and x/y listing and could’ve held CA I’m FL.

The first year at DL has been a pay cut, but with all the movement I’ll be at 50% in base after year one. I moved to base and haven’t worked a holiday or birthday and hardly work on reserve. I knew I’d be taking a pay cut but didn’t anticipate how great QOL would be. Best of luck!


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Best of luck to you. Anyone have any idea how long Spirit is taking in PRIA requests?

I'm leaving for DL in around a week. My background and PRIA was completed quite quickly, although the time between a CJO and first available class date is so long that it pretty much doesn't matter (AA and UA are slightly less backed up for indoc though). I'm pretty sure they're legally required to respond within 30 days.

FWIW, I'm only a 2 year FO and the decision was still tough to make. Too much uncertainty at NK to feel comfortable in DTW.


Good luck to all.

Good info thanks. Seems to be a mixed bag in terms of response time. Agree legally 30 days is the max. Good luck to you and stay safe.

yanno, I hear what you’re saying but does it even matter anymore?, lol. Look at AA. They are like 10 billion in the hole and climbing and it doesn’t seem to matter. The economy has been set to crash for how long now? It just keeps pumping along.

I think they are closer to $40B. I used to think that the govt would never let a company named American go out of business, now I think it’s a possibility.

The last figure I saw was somewhere between 37 to 38 billion in debt. The world’s largest airline has negative equity. Someone once pointed out to me that with miles programs that legacies are essentially financial institutions with an aircraft fleet, and that their balance sheets are incredibly more favorable if you include the value of their miles programs. But I think the incorrect assumption there is that the airline and the credit (miles) program are the same entity; to my knowledge they’re purposely separate. And why would they scrap the value in their miles programs to save the books on a sinking airline when it’s easier to head straight for the debt iceberg and figure it out in Chapter 11? Sounds eerily similar to when AA declared BK in 2011 with 25 billion in assets (10 billion in cash) and over 29 billion in debt.

I may have gone off on a tangent.

The point is, I think this is part of AA’s business plan. I think it’s a foregone conclusion that when a recession comes again, AA will re-execute its plan and history will repeat itself again. And I do think they lean heavily on the notion that our government won’t allow their name to fail. However, if politics mean anything, I think them house/senate boys down in Texas would love to see an AA in BK during Biden’s administration.

Nope. But reorganizing in bankruptcy? Like AA was doing ten years ago? Yeah, they’ll allow that…

They absolute are financial institutions operating as airlines. In fact there have been numerous videos done on the topic.
This one is particularly well done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggUduBmvQ_4

I don't see "out of business", maybe BK debt reorganization. Again.

I was reading above for awhile back that Spirit was responding fairly quickly to PRIA requests. I have DL requesting PRIA for at least a month and a half now, and the background check company says they've attempted electronically to request PRIA from Spirit 3 times to no avail and have had to physically mail the PRIA request recently. Anyone else had this happen recently?