did you start at Detla yet?

Whatever makes you feel better about voting "yes" to being a low tier pilot...

I’m getting so loose tonight I might lose my train of thought

I’m not really sure wheat you meant by that but it’s making me pretty loose too! I’m thinking lots of happy thoughts about you ;)

When you got hired here, there were places with better contracts, but you came to NK instead. You voted yes to the then CBA by accepting the job. And that CBA was low tier. Don't make it sound like it is the fault of the people hired here recently that we have what we have. Been here almost 10 years, at 20% RS, that is why I am still here. Go to Delta, or alternatively, just get of your high horse.

Well this might be the dumbest thing ever posted on the internet. Best not to say this in person to other people. Or people to southwest pilots or your future jetblue brothers in particular (cough cough).

Best not to call others “low tier pilots” in person for voting in a 30% pay raise over two years.

1) When you've been here about 2 minuets and couldn't even vote you sure talk a lot and 2) When even ALIGANT management put out higher payrates than us and their negotiating committee actually had the balls to tell them no you bet your ass I can call each and every yes voter a happy content low tier pilot.

Compared to you, I am the smartest guy on the internet. What part shouldn't I say in person? The part that you accepted a subpar contract, or the the part that you are complaining about that afterwards when other people are doing the same thing? They probably don't know you anyway..... If you are talking about me voting "yes", I will give you my reasons: SIL integration. Being closer to JB in pay rates will get us closer to RS. I am under 20% 10 years in, but if we get DOH I will go down to almost 40% RS, and close to 80% RS as a 320 captain, so back to reserve is possible. Getting our rates closer to JBs will help. Get it now. Yes, I hate the bite of the apple BS, but our NC believes that, so why would you think they would get more if we voted it down? And obviously twice as many people voted yes, so I am not the only one who thinks that.. I don't like the TA, No health insurance, s#!t training pay, slope not fixed. All true. You believe voting no would have fixed that before the merger, I don't. You are more than welcome to vote with your feet, I hear Delta is hiring.

minuets + ALIGANT + interpunction = low tier

Those are a lot of excuses you had to work through to justify being content as a low tier pilot.

So what is your excuse for being at NK?

What makes you think we are going to get RS? Fact is, NO ONE knows what will happen or how it will happen.

Man, this “leverage” you speak of, clearly isn’t leverage. Otherwise you’d already have gotten what you want. They (management) don’t care and never will. The “we gave something up” mentality has been debunked. Not a single pilot at NK, goes home at the end of the day, looking down at his cracked dirty hands and food stamp application and says, “thanks to this TA - my day is now harder”.

Because HE literally gave nothing up. If your day is harder and you’re paid less as a direct result of giving up so called leverage, I don’t know what to tell you.

Are you seriously that deaf to how the airline world works? Are is your only rebuttal to someone who wants better for the pilot group is to gO To DeLtA?

RS?


filler

Relative seniority

ah thanks.

Wtf are you talking about?

No, I think after 25 years I have a pretty good grasp. In 25 years NK has not been close to any legacy contract, at least as far as pay goes. Not expecting that to change isn't defeatist, it's being a realist. Voting the TA down would just have delayed it more than we could recoup, and that is assuming we would get more. I don't believe it's worth the wait. You are free to find that defeatist, but you are a minority.
In 2017 we were a lot further from DL than we are now.

Why are you using 2017 of all years to make your looser mentality defeatist argument?

This pilot group is so sad and pathetic whoever said it was right we do deserve to be stapled. JetBlue isn’t delta, you think that is stopping their pilot group? (The answer is no).

If you read their threads, it sure sounds like they think it is.

Oh good the expert that spent 3 weeks at a regional and 3 months at Spirit is back. Who got snap up to legacy rates again? I forget sorry.

Mybad , lol meant to quote “noice cancellation “ post that you responded to. Kinda hard to read apc on my phone.

The yes versus no vote "what if" argument is way too nuanced to be had at this point.

The TA ratification might very well save us going into the TPA and SLI. It also might completely hose us if the merger fails and we have to go back to the table while management arbitrarily slides first year pay to industry leading rates.

Nobody knows for sure, and pointing fingers while saying "I told you so" is not really a thing at this point in the process.

Gotta wait and see how things shake out.

the word you’re looking for is loser.

Maybe he wants a tighter mentality. Lol

By the way, glad I was not the only one who notices these sorts of things.

Why would this TA "save" you in TPA/SLI?

I think the NC's argument is something that career compensation expectation-wise the higher we're paid going into SLI, the better we'll fair in the SLI process. Do I buy that argument??? Meh.....

Good copy...

Ask a Mesaba pilots how it went with the Colgan pilots and the SLI in regards to career expectations.
Colgan pilots, higher paid, came out ahead and they didn't even have airplanes, iirc. (Wasn't there myself)
There definitely precedent.

Former XJ here. Mesaba was operating under a bankruptcy contract that was still better than Colgan (they didn’t have one yet because they had just voted in ALPA shortly before). Mesaba was losing airplanes when they were sold to Pinnacle and Colgan was taking deliveries of new Q400s. The argument was that a pilot going to Colgan had a better career expectation of moving to the left seat quickly. It worked in the eyes of the arbitrator (who also dabbled in magic on the side).

Interesting info there. I wonder how our order book compares to JBLU’s?

Not actually that comparable considering JB has a considerably OLDER fleet and many more of their orders are replacement aircraft including for the 60 E190s they are phasing out altogether. Yeah, NK is getting rid of their 319s, but that will be accomplished before merger and those will be more than offset with the aircraft coming in this year which will leave the average fleet age for NK even younger.

Well... in my new hire class, they told me to expect an upgrade in 2 years! hahaha, so... about those career expectations !!!

There are expectations and there are fantasies. They aren’t the same…;)

Order books were all but disregarded in the AK/VA SLI.


”G. Static Fleet Versus Dynamic Fleet Assumptions
Arbitration decisions integrating pilot seniority lists typically rely on fleet assumptions that are static on the snapshot date. By doing so, Arbitration Boards are able to see the implications of various methods for integrating the pilot work force on the workforce as it actually existed on the announced date of the merger, as contrasted to a work force determined by hypothetical assumptions about aircraft count, pilot behavior, and other merger related variables. In this case, for example, the parties presented multiple and inconsistent fleet projections. Those projections were simply predictions made at a certain date, using different assumptions, and presented to different audiences. None of them provides a reliable guide to the future. ALPA Merger Policy cautions that “merger representatives should recognize the
difficulty of forecasting what will occur well into the future” [JX 1,p. 4].
While the fleet size, number of pilots, and status and longevity of pilots on the separate lists will continue to change after the snapshot date, many of those changes will be directly related to the merger. Using the snapshot date as the measuring stick for various merged lists helps to keep post-merger driven considerations from unfairly impacting the IPSL in either direction.
Fleet assumptions are important because the size of the fleet determines the number of pilot jobs, the status of the jobs, the opportunities for advancement and other factors important to a pilot’s everyday work life. The Virgin America Committee argues that the Alaska fleet will most certainly grow over the next few years and urges the Board to consider several different, future fleet sizes in determining a fair and equitable seniority list. The Board disagrees. Unlike future fleet projections which may be too high, too low, or dead on, the size of the fleet on the snapshot date is ascertainable and definite. Using a static fleet analysis as of the snapshot date allows the Board to determine the impact of various formulas for merging the lists without reliance on speculative merger driven fleet size assumptions. In the final analysis, when a merged list is implemented and the fleet subsequently grows, all pilots will benefit from the opportunities presented by that growth, even if the benefit varies from pilot to pilot.”


The AK/VA Protocol Agreement also set the merger closing date as the “snapshot” date. If we follow the same pattern and the merger doesn’t close until late 2023 or early 2024 all of the 319’s will be gone and almost all of the 190’s as well.

Can't spell their way out of a cardboard box, but know everything.....

more like “ask a pinnacle pilot “

Can you show me where it said the merger closing date was used as the snapshot? I thought it was the announcement date, but if I’m wrong, I’m wrong.