Spirit for the older guy?
 

Pretty provocative title, but here it goes...
I'm 51, coming from the wide-body overseas carrier and have a choice between ACMI carrier and the ULCC/Spirit to retire at in 14 years.
What attracts me to Spirit is the apparent ability to adjust one's schedule to either maximize income or have lots of time off.
Relatively new fleet of 320s (which I never flew but would love to try), great, and friendly team spirit (pun not intended) and choice of bases (ORD or IAH would work great for me).
How do you see this place as a potential destination airline for a guy my age? I have zero interest in flying wide body ever again (sick and tired of it), but would like the flexibility of the roster and competitive pay on par with the big guys (or close to it).
Few supplemental questions:
- what is the training timeframe and do you get to fly home on weekends?
- is there a ZED travel non rev agreement with other airlines to use?
- is the choice of base in the joining class dependent on age or anything else?

Thanks

See PM

(filler)

Keep in mind, Spirit was purchased by JetBlue, so things will change pretty quickly.

Not to mention the PW problem over the next 3 years.

There are much better options right now for just those 2 reasons alone, not including all the other reasons.

Interesting crash, was that you? (N4865G)

I've met a few guys that fit your profile here, your expectations seem to be in line with what you will get and I think you will enjoy it. From day 1 indoc to checkride will be about 60-70 days, I'm not sure how long the wait to start OE is, but probably plan another month. I did my training over Thanksgiving a few years ago and we got five days off, not sure if that is normal or not. Operating Experience (OE) is done system wide so the company will deadhead you around the system to where the check airman is to complete it. While all this is happening you put in a system bid for what base you want, availability is driven 100% by seniority. By the time you complete OE you should be able to at least hold IAH, maybe ORD if you're lucky. Plan on 6-8 months reserve in IAH, once you hold ORD probably up to 1.5 years of reserve.

The only negative thing about what you asked above is overtime. OT is tough to come by here unless you're based in MCO or FLL, guys might argue with me and there are exceptions, but it works a little different at Spirit. You can pick up open-time trips on days off IF you are a lineholder, but it's only at straight-pay. In order to get 200% you need to list for what they call X/Y list and if they call you and you take it? Then you get 200%. Not the best system IMO, but you can still easily pick up to about 90 hours credit once you are a line-holder. Other airlines you can pick up OT willy nilly at 200%, at Spirit they have to call you.

We have a lot of ZED fare partner airlines to choose from worldwide.

Hope that helps.

Nope, I did my first solo in it, then never flown it again.

Very much it does, thank you.

Hi all!


Long time lurker, first-time poster.

Interesting thread. I'm even older than the "older guy", and am considering Spirit.

At 58, I am a former CRJ pilot who got hired before the Colgan crash and never upgraded because I had a nice side gig (as an M.D.) that benefited from the schedule flexibility of single-digit right-seat seniority. Remember pre-Colgan?, pilots only needed a CMEL certificate to get hired: I have no ATP.

So -- looking at the "minimum requirements" -- I fall short only in the ATP license, however, I do have the ATP-CTP certificate (interestingly, done at the FLL Spirit training center from midnight to 4am in the Spirit sims).

Besides that, I have some 6,000 TT, 4,000 Part 121 time, and am current in a single-pilot EFIS single-engine turboprop.

I would love to fly professionally again, with the flexibility to continue practicing medicine on the side.

Two main questions:

1) Would Spirit hire me with ATP-CTP? If not, how do you recommend I get it?

2) Would this be a good fit for me?


Eager to hear some advice. And would love to know why the OP is "sick and tired" of wide-body flying... probably some good stories behind that: please share.


Regards,

/Turp

Issues:
1. You have little schedule flexibility until you can hold a line
2. Who knows what the JCBA holds (assuming there is a JCBA)?

I don't know what's going on lately, the last few months the MCO FO Open Time pot has been absolutely barren except for the 14 hour 4 day red eye trips... I take a peek at FLL as well since its in driving distance and same story. I know October/September are slower months but there's not even an option to pick up a straight time trip. First time I ever thought that B6's no picking up in other bases was a good idea... I'd still rather have it our way but seriously it's a wasteland in open time. I showed it to the Captain on last trip, plenty of stuff in their open time, he couldn't believe how it was on the FO side.

Other airlines you can pick up willy nilly... if you have a bot or are super senior. At least here every one has a shot at OT. I think you're the first person I've heard speak negatively of the X/Y system honestly, which is fine to each their own I'm just a bit surprised... and some what new, in one of those bases you mentioned.

I just wish that anything posted in open-time automatically paid premium. The premium pay column is rarely checked on Flica. Anything picked up out of open time only pays 100%, I think JetBlue pays like 125% minimum. That said, I'm Texas based I rarely get called for X or Y, and I do list for it usually 5-10 days per month depending. My FLL and MCO friends get a ton of calls, we rarely get them here.

But... first world problems I guess. :)

“Hey Bob, it’s Tom. Captain grid is green. Are you on Flica? I’m going to drop my 4 day, you pick it up and get the 125%. Then, you drop one of your 4 days an I’ll pick it up for 125%”

If only it was that easy

Yes and no. I'm a captain in FLL, and after the bots crash flica during DOT open at 1200 there isn't much leftover for everyone else.

There is a notorious brazilian CA here in FLL who has nabs up all of the day turns right at the strike of DOT. He bids weekends off with red eye turns and other garbage junior pairings, drops all of it in IOT because it's normally green during the week, and then somehow manages to suck up most of whatever day turns are available at the start of DOT despite flica crashing.

i would love to know his secret but I have a pretty good idea of what it might be.

List for the Xlist every single day of every month. Crew scheduling regularly makes mistakes (calling out of order, missing info on VM, etc…) and you can take advantage of those and file NCCs.

I don’t know a single airline that pays pilots more than 100% straight pay for normal open time pickups.

Frontier does pay 125% for credit over 85hrs(?) I think.

Thats a pittance but the *****s would gobble up even more open time than they do now and there would be zero x/y 200%

No we don't. It's either:

1. Straight - 100%
2. Premium - if the X is beside the trip, 150%.
3. RSA - sit reserve, paid at 150%/175% if used. They send an email out when offering RSA, you request to accept it in Flica.
4. VDA - 200%, you list and they call you if they need you.

Worse than NK...

Yep. NK's X/Y system is pretty awesome. The way they divvy up who gets called makes premium flying accessible to everyone, not just the super senior. And it's plentiful. I've been called for 200% trips and wasn't even listed on the X/Y list, lol. The comment earlier in the thread about there being no premium flying here is not accurate.

Don't forget B6 does redeye sims too...

O please. If it was so good NK wouldn’t be bleeding pilots.

If B6 was so good, it wouldn’t need to buy NK to get pilots.

Now, back to something constructive…..

Take a second to listen rather than puff your chest out.

Spirit has contract items that are very much worth fighting to keep as a JetBlue pilot.

Drop to zero and pick up trips for 200%.

Reserves able to pick up 200% trips on days off.

Hang together and get the best of both world. Obviously the best negotiating environment since Orville and Wilbur.

At Sun Country if a trip is in the open time pot, it is 150% minimum. Company has discretion to list a day as a higher premium, no maximum.

Whether or not it is plentiful is heavily base dependent. For instance, currently in FLL/MIA once you accumulate around 30ish hours of premium time then you can forget about X list calls, and even most Y list calls.

And that is only on the weekends. During the week we are fat on reserves.

My exact experience in MCO.

Also, green grid rules are great for when seniority-based trading opens (Initial Open Time IOT) but once it hits first come first serve (Daily Open Time DOT) weekends are perpetually red.

Our X/Y is still more fair for junior pilots than B6 system however... in any event, even with the "best of both worlds" we'll be lagging our competitors I fear.

Reserves at B6 are able to pick up premium trips on days off too( VDA 200%, RSA 150/175%, premium 150%). The only thing we advise new hires against is picking up straight trips (100%) on reserve, unless they already broke guarantee for that month. Else that straight pick up will only go towards guarantee, basically working for free since you get nothing extra for it.

I do want our VDA system to be more equitable though. How NK does the cycling is a good option.
The drop to zero has been beaten to a pulp. If we aim for DTZ and only could save it to drop to like 30/40, I wouldn't be too mad. The real changer we need is NK green/red grid rules. If we get DTZ and no grid rules change, you NK guys are going to come to hate DTZ, since with our (B6) grid you won't be able to DTZ.

I don’t know why B6 guys think drop to ___ (some arbitrary credit value more than zero) is a compromise worth negotiating. The drop only works because of the grid, and only happens with more than required reserve coverage. Bottom line is the company doesn’t care who flies the trip and long as the trip gets flown. Now you have pilots burning sick time to get rid of trips that have to be crewed last minute. Having to finish the month with mandatory credit, regardless of how reasonable the number may sound, not only hamstrings those trying to maneuver their schedules, it also makes other less likely to float trips into open time if they fear being forced to pick up or get assigned something else the wouldn’t want.

It’s no different than us saying “I wouldn’t be too mad if the company placed a cap on max payouts from profit sharing to $10,000 each, I mean it’s better than nothing…”

As I said, we aim for DTZ. If the NC comes back with DT30/40 I wouldn't be too mad. I didn't say it was a compromise worth negotiating, but I wouldn't be as furious as the NK folks. That's the difference I was trying to make.

The fact that you felt you should say something about it proves my point that you would be more furious than I would. It doesn't mean I would vote Yes and it doesn't mean I would not support NK folks opinion on it, I'm just less mad about it.

DTZ period is where I fall on my sword. Not plus 1, 10, or 20. It can be life changing. Have toddlers that don't get red eyes mean mommy or daddy can't be disturbed? Want to commute to Medellin for the low cost real estate and expensive wife? Elderly parents ill? Have a side gig? Planning that life dream vacation? Ethical problem calling out sick for that real estate closing? The examples are too numerous to list.

It can subtly change your work life balance. It's like trying to explain freedom to a hostage that believes their captors BS, while their captors give themselves million dollar bonuses. Imagine doing what you love, you're good at it, and that is because it's on your terms. Not the changing whims of the market and the greed of wannabe little tyrants.

Listen to us and go with us on this. You will be astonished. I've never met a JB pilot I couldn't enjoy a trip with. We are cut from the same cloth. This is what we bring to the table. Stand strong with us, not with the profiteering manipulator on the other side of the table. Take what we offer for your family if not yourself.

This is the way.

If we lose DTZ, im not just leaving the new airline, Im leaving the industry.

To add to what Hugh said, DTZ *is* industry standard... It's just the other guys can't use it most of the time because their reserve coverage isn't adequate. Our grid language is what makes it possible by requiring the company to adequately staff the airline.

I'll probably quit too if we lose DTZ or the grid rules.

You hit the nail on the head. They'll go after this first. The easiest target may be Section 25.K, Required daily minimum reserve coverage, but I'm far from an expert. Here's some language I would go after if I was them. Anyone care to share the JB language we are working with? I might have to cancel my DTZ or Send it Back lanyard order to 25% and DTZ. I don't understand what I don't know so anyone that can expand on this please speak up.

If the number of red days in a bid month
exceeds 25 percent in any one category/ domicile, the
Company will decrease the minimum required reserve
coverage threshold to allow for the approval of a greater
number of net credit loss transactions.

Hope I'm not violating TOS or negotiating protocol putting this out here. Whatever opinions some have regarding the NC, we can't work to subvert them.

I think y'all believe that us B6 pilots on here don't understand how DTZ works and it's impact(after you all explained it a million times already) just because we don't talk as strong about DTZ. Not because we don't get all emotional and aggressive towards DTZ doesn't mean we don't understand the formula. Everyone has their own priority and while we will shoot for the best of both CBA and then some, don't expect everyone to show as much emotion to the same stuff you do even when we support the DTZ idea. Some of our own B6 peeps don't even show as much enthusiasm to profit sharing as others. That's how the cookie crumbles.

You(or a pilot who's big on QOL) won't show as much enthusiasm as some B6 folks for profit sharing although you would probably stand for it. That's just how it is.

Your last paragraph sounded like I said "I don't want DTZ over PS". Where's that coming from? Did I mention at any point that I want to compromise on this JCBA? How about this, go with us B6 folks on Profit Sharing, do it for your family if not for yourself. :rolleyes:

Let me tell you where I stand.

I Want Everything And The Kitchen Sink.

Nah, I put my opinion out there as much for the huge mass of new guys we have that have never worked under a contract of any sort as JB guys unfamiliar. Obviously, you don't need an education from the likes of me.

Just check my history here. Of all the recent voting of LOAs, extensions etc, I haven't seen an agreement here at JB that I'd vote yes to yet. I'm not easily rolled by those corporate profiteering manipulators as you accurately referenced. So the JCBA better be solid.

Count me standing next to you guys on profit sharing as well. You'll find no shortage of guys at NK with you all in on that. 26% I think it was several contracts ago. I've been here most my adult life so I really don't have a reference other than DAL is posted here at 16.6%. Not even familiar with the language of how it's paid other than Investopedia, which makes it a no brainer.

United just changed their profit sharing to a similar formula to Delta pilots which has been the gold standard for profit sharing. I think there will be narrowbody CA collecting $70k checks in February