It's certainly a rough decision. It's not so much the decision perhaps, but to figure out how to do it.

If theres a will, theres a way. I'm just trying to figure out the way.

I’ll be the first to admit I was wrong. I thought the ULCC could be the future of aviation and grow as large as it is in Europe. I thought we were the next southwest. I honestly believed we would be the first to profitability after Covid. I was wrong. So very wrong. The profit sharing checks at delta and United this year are going to be huge!

I think between spirit and frontier we have saturated the market and collected all the low hanging fruit available. Growing from here is going to prove challenging imo. Maintaining this size is going to be challenging with our current management wants a merger no matter what.

Working for indigo also not a viable option. Same business model and market forces, and we all know how it worked out the first time around.

What is ULCC?

and how does the profit sharing bonus work. My wife gets something similar from Walgreens, but not sure how it works. This year it's pretty low lol

I gotta say I'm getting excited about this. I watched a little snippet from the CEO of the company and I liked how he presented himself and what he had to say. There seems to be military aviation structure there since he was a topgun inst and his higher up peers are as well, which I'll fit in very goo to.

I also contacted a colleauge who says she can certainly get me a job at the police academy doing general and firearms instructing which is around $45 an hour. part time and they are desperate for good instructors. I am the training coordinator at my agency. If I could do both, I should be ok for about 1-2 years I think.

Ok but we are a growth company and a growth stock. Other than paying down debts a bit faster or funding expansion, the amount of net profit we make is not the biggest economic factor. Revenues have consistently trended upwards over the last decade, and continue to do so. I don’t know how else to explain that huge leftover profits are not the goal of the company at this time. United and Delta are large mature companies that no longer rely on growth and expansion to boost share price, instead they focus on profits. They pay a dividend to shareholders, and the pilots get a slice of that. Spirit, or even a combined Spirit/JetBlue, is a long way from being large enough to take their foot of the growth accelerator and start divvying money to shareholders. As long as the bills are paid, profitability isn’t my chief concern. That’s not to say there aren’t improvements that management needs to make, but we keep adding routes, adding planes, and I see no market saturation in sight.

But hey, if your opinion is otherwise, why hang around? If you’re old enough to have more seniority than me, every day that passes makes your switch to a legacy less palatable. I’ll tell ya buddy, the Jet Blue merger isn’t some magic pill. If B6 is saddled with 3 billion of Spirit debt, they ain’t handing our profit sharing checks anytime soon, especially with several hundred aircraft and several thousand pilots and crew to train to get into legacy territory. If the uncertainty of a merger is excruciating for you, the uncertainty of the future after the court decision will be the same.

Where to begin.

If you don’t know what an ULCC is, you need to study. It isn’t just an acronym. It’s like saying you want to buy a McDonalds franchise and ask “what’s a Happy Meal and a Big Mac”

Profit sharing is simple, zero.

Our CEO is a clueless clown who gets lost in his own office. He has taken a profitable company and ran it into a loss every quarter. Many mistakes including self admitted that we shouldn’t have tried to grow through the pandemic recovery, ooops. So maybe you’re talking about your time building CEO. If you like a military style organization, you won’t find that at Spirit.

one good hope for the future of ULCC is that the USA’s middle classes will continue to shrink as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

so eventually, these people that are on the fringe with flying a legacy will eventually have to switch over to a ULCC as their relative income dwindles over time.

Thank you for your insight and suggestion to study.

Doubtful, the opposite is happening; more and more passengers are looking to fly business/first, and pay for it. The article discussing the demise of the ULCC addresses this and how ULCCs might need to offer more products like BFS versus steerage.

And our rates are not that much cheaper,
sometimes higher, than legacy counterparts. They price match us like crazy and our dumb management trolls can’t find a way to compete. Can’t imagine people are saying “if I can get they raise, I can fly legacy, versus NK”

I don’t think price is everything. I’ve been flying a lot for events where I needed a ticket, and Spirit/Frontier are multiples cheaper than AA out of DFW, even with a bag. For example, on Monday, DFW to LAS is $70-80 on Spirit and $388 on AA. This has been my experience in different markets, as well.

ULCC can absolutely be profitable if done properly. Ted checked out a while back.

You've had a lot of responses on this, let me add a few more thoughts as someone who made the same jump (LE to airlines) 2.5 years ago. I'm a little older than you but you're old enough to be more or less in the same boat. You can likely remember when LE was a dream job and something that you really looked forward to doing, now it's just a job. Airline flying will be the same thing- eventually it will settle in to being just a job. Granted its a job that I really enjoy, but it has it's downsides like any job. Just be prepared for that when the honeymoon period wears off.

Drama? You're going to find that in any line of work. It's less so than at the PD but it's still there. There are a lot of 25 year old kids (I'm at a regional, but the LLCs are not far behind that curve) on their first job and fresh out of mommy's basement, who think they know everything there is to know. There are crusty old timers who hate everything in the world including themselves. There's everything in between. Mix them all together and there is going to be some drama. That said 90% of the people I work with are great, even the CAs that I fly with who are barely old enough to be my kids. When I walk into the crew room and close my eyes it sounds like I'm right back in the squad room- same personalities, same loud voices *****ing about the contract, the union, management, blah blah blah. The environment felt strangely familiar the first time I walked in the door.

Speaking of home- you're going to be home less since you'll be on the road for between 3-6 days at a time, with 3-5 days off in between (rough average.) Make sure that the family can handle that. Now here's the upside- when you are home, you are truly home, fully present and not stressed. For most of my LE career I had jobs that were 24/7/365 on call, so even your off time is never fully your own. Plus you bring home all the stress and issues from the job (read Dr. Gilmartin's book if you haven't.) At the airline, once you set the brake at the end of a trip and go home, you are truly off duty. I don't take any stress home, I don't need a day to decompress, I don't answer a phone on my days off, I don't think about work much at all until it's time to go back for my next trip. In other words, the quality of time that you are home is much better. This can be a big deal in some families.

Training- the training model at the airlines is very similar to that in LE. You show up on day one and come out the other end as a newly type-rated pilot who knows your company books inside and out. Just like a fresh academy graduate, you know everything and nothing at the same time. You then go through a period of field training (we call it IOE or some variation) where a seasoned FTO-type teaches you how to apply all that knowledge "on the street." You then go back for periodic refresher/ in-service training to practice skills that you are likely to never need in real like, but nevertheless need to keep sharp. Most pilots go their entire career without a real engine failure, just like most cops go their entire career without firing a shot in anger. But both of them must maintain those skills just in case today becomes "that day."

While we're on training, think about this when you're looking at ways of building your time. Buying yourself 1000 hours in a 152 is one way to get it done, but what is the quality of that experience? I'd guide you towards actual flying employment where you will get some real world experience in the big-boy IFR system. Airlines expect you to show up on day with with this background, and without it you will really struggle. I work part time in the training dept at my airline and I see this with new hires. The more real world experience you have the better prepared you will be. Not to mention, the older you get the more calcified your brain becomes and the harder it is to absorb new material. You're not that old yet but old enough that you will start to notice that when you "drink from the fire hose."

You mentioned looking at specific airlines based on their proximity to your home and the ability to drive to work. I think that is a great plan- being able to drive to work and not have the added stress of commuting (via airline) to work is a huge quality of life factor. The standard caveats apply- bases come and go so you have to do your research. Some bases are more secure than others, and what is plan B if your base closes.

There are some folks who will tell you that you haven't succeeded unless/ until you have a job at a legacy. Hogwash. I think you have the right idea of finding a mid-level job and settling in, if it balances out the money/ family/ QOL equation. Hell I'm at a regional and I'm pretty content- upgrading soon and will be making pretty good money (better than I ever did at the PD) and driving to work. With single digits of years left, I may well just ride it out where I am (assuming my company still exists, which is always a gamble.) There is very little that is certain or stable in this business. Like you I got back in to aviation after getting out in leaner times (early 90s) and I settled in to LE with its job security. One of my favorite comparisons is this- LE is a great career, but it's a lousy job. Airline flying is a great job but it's a lousy career. You've seen enough in LE to know the difference.

Your statement, while popular and emotionally attractive, is nor supported by the facts.

This was great. and a great perspective for me. I'm going to send you a PM, maybe we can talk more about this on the phone if you have time.

There are def upsides of my job.

• I work in a good town and very friendly.
• I have a decent retirement that I can collect 70% of my highest salary at age 52 (14 years). It goes up 3% every year. If I leave now, I get about 33% at 52 until I die.
• I do (most of the time) come home every night. I am (most of the time) well liked and noticed that I'm a hard worker.
• We have some of the coolest toys. UTV, ATV, boat, jetski, other things I can't remember
• I've gone to some very cool trainings
• I've done alot and learned alot.
• Close to home. 30 minutes to get to work, and I get a vehicle to take home so barely put miles on my own car (which can be taken away at any time if they want to for any reason)
• Predictable schedule (more on this in cons)
• lots of sick time and vacation time.

Here are some downsides...

• I am pretty much topped out. Even if I make chief in 10 years, I will be making less than what a captain makes year 1.
• There is A LOT of drama here. I can't imagine aviation having this much. At least according to few buddies who were cops that got back into aviation (who pushed me to get back into)
• The competition for promotion is fierce. It's not seniority based. if you wanna work your way up, you will be fighting people trying to jam you up or make you look bad as they get close to higher ups and in their favor.
• Both careers are dangerous, but I have no idea if I'm going to my last call and get killed.
• People want to kill you and hate you
• People are recording you with cameras, intentionally trying to jam you up
• I am on call 24/7 pretty much. We don't get a work cell phone, or allowance, so my wife MADE me get a 2nd phone, so I can leave the phone I use for work at home when we have family events. I pretty much have to always do something on my day off. On vacation, I bring my work laptop with me because I'm gonna be needed to do something (I do alot of admin stuff, such as training, audits, accreditation, hiring interviews, etc)
• This job causes me to bring work home. Especially the stress, and guess who I vent to. my wife... lol
• I have a set schedule, but it's subject to change at anytime. I guess not really a con because most jobs in life your schedule might change, but it happens based on attitude and politics here. I can be on days for years, and something happens, you go where you don't want to go.

Now these things are things I've just been used to. I've learned to live with it. Like I said, I work for a good agency and the town is great. We get all the toys. I can ride the ATV, UTV, get on the boat with a marine unit, ride the jet ski, patrol.... I mean who wouldn't want to get paid riding a jet ski for work? I'm doing a detail right now, sitting in my car at the beach, watching the scenery and making sure nobody does anything stupid. What a dream. and it's a beautiful beach.

But the negatives add up and you can decide if you were in my shoes.

I do agree with the cessna thing. There are no jobs for a pilot with 400TT unfortunetly, so I might do this tropic airways idea which will introduce me to FLL, 135 operations, scheduled flights and some turbine time (albeit single). It's on of the options. I'm looking at alternatives. I do not want to CFI though.

Even considered getting ATP-CTP along with a biz jet type rating afater I get the hours and use GI Bill to pay for 60% of it.

Thee are many ways to go about this.

I also made the deal from LE January of last year. I’m going to send you a PM, it looks like a lot of your hesitations and concerns similar to mine.

Wrote you back. Looking forward to talking to you.

But never learned how to spell "a lot" :D

Go for it
 

Razor,

Thank you for your service to our country and your community. 12 years is a good time in that industry and it’s awesome you get some sort of pension later in life even if you quit now. You’ve got 27(or more) years ahead of you in aviation. There’s three sections of an airline pilot career. 1: Training, you’ve already done most of it but need to blow out the cobwebs and finish. 2: Transition/Experience Building, this is the part that does actually have some drama and bull**** involved, but is the time when you make yourself into the pilot you want to be. 3. “The Good Job”, honestly it’s extremely easy and low drama if you want.

It’s helpful to know and understand a variety of other peoples paths in this career so you have reference for your own. I finished my ratings in 2007 and started instructing in 2008. 2.5 years of instructing, 2.5 at one turboprop regional, 1.5 at another, 10 years at JetBlue. I stayed in when you got out, I’m your same age and did the low pay thing. The first 4 years flying for a living I made 25k or less a year, the next 3 I made 40-50k a year, and I didn’t cross 100k until my tenth. This is year 16, I’m on track for 260k on only 200 hours of block(long call reserve). Like I said, it’s incredibly easy at the top, but it takes some time to get there.

Now some advice. You still have to do section 1. Get a good instructor, focus on becoming a great pilot, be expedient with the commercial certificate but don’t put yourself on as few hours as possible to get ready. Failed checkrides are not good. Get your multi commercial too. Section 2 hasn’t changed much from when you last left aviation other than it has potential to be much shorter and pay a bit more. It took me 6 years to get from commercial certificate to major airline job and for you that could be 2-3. The Tropic SIC job looks like a great opportunity. Even though I enjoyed instructing, I would have jumped at the chance to do that type of job before the regional. Did you get answers from your call with them? What’s their pay and how many hours a year can you expect? Even if you are unable to get directly to a major from there, if they’re able to get you to ATP mins quickly and then you do a stint at a jet regional that’s still good. You’re filling that variety of experience that’s going to make you a great pilot.

Like I said it was the tenth year before I made 100k, but you have the potential to be doing that in the right seat at JetBlue/Spirit or AA, driving to work in 2026 or 2027. It sounds like you already know you want a career change and you have a great option in flying, so go for it. I do want to know more about tropic.

Thanks for your reply. I'll write you a detailed response. I have been busy working on that "step 1" so I was little awol form this post...

I started flying. It took me about 8 hours to get my flight review done which included a 5 hour xc. we did hit a bunch of airports on the way back.to practice entering patterns etc. We did fight some LLWS and 29g winds so it was def a good challenge and baptism under fire.

I already did 2 solo flights to "get back behind the yoke" and feel very comfortable. it came back amazingly fast. I'm even proud of my landings lmao. Already built flew about 14 hours total. I am checked out in an older C172 that has dual G5s and IFR capable. I met a few people already that is going to share the time with me and act as safety pilot etc. Plane is $125 an hour so sharing the cost isn't too bad. I did find someone willing to rent me a C150 here for 60 dry, but I don't feel comfortable with them as they weren't best at communicating and backed out on their word and stopped communicating lol. I plan on working on the commercial maneuvers starting this weekend most likely. I'll go with a CFI, get some practice in, then go fly them myself. I feel in about 10-12 hours of instruction/practice, I will be able to demonstrate performance maneuvers and other ACS items to proficiency standards. I also will start working on the IPC and try to get current on IFR again as well. I'm trying to do one at a time though, and want to concentrate on CPL then MEL.

after I had made this post, I ran into a person while having lunch with my crew at work. he overheard me talking about piloting and came and introduced himself. He is a training captain / check airmen for a 135 charter company that flies hawker jets. he gave me his info and we became friends. He told me to get to 1000 hours and he will get me a FO job as a hawker pilot. He also told me once I get my CPL/MEL at around 500 hours, on part 91 flights (he said when on a contract) he can bring me along as a FO/SIC and get me trained on the jet and get me my SIC type rating. I trust this works out for me because it will be an amazing opportunity. He is also CFII and said he will gladly get me current and train me for IFR without charging me.

As far as tropic air goes... I called them and stopped by their facility. On the outside it seemed nice and the person from OPS that was showing me around genuinely seemed interested in me (perhaps a fresh of air from the young 20 year olds they hire). They had a mishap recently where one of their pilots overran the runway at KFLL. yikes... The lady I spoke with on the phone gave me a bunch of info. pay is the worst thing I've seen/heard. You start at 26K first month during training, then goes to 30K while you right seat. about midway as FO, you'll make 40K. when you reach 1200TT you will start CA pay at 60K. they want you there for 1 year once you reach PIC. She didn't mention contract when I asked, but from what I hear there is indeed a contract. you get about 60-100 hours a month depending on time of year. no night flying unless ferry flight and most flights are VFR. They are in the same building as Spirit's training area so it's common pilots head over to spirit from there once they reach 1500 or so I guess. you work 21/7. you're assigned a plane and you pretty much fly whatever that plane does for your rotation. There are 3 groups from applications that you get put into. 250-500, 500-800 and 800+... most applicants are 500-800. They get very few 800+ pilots applying. they don't pick much from the 250-500 pool and most are picked from the 500-800 pool. It could be an option if nothing else works out for me. I also reached out to planesense and they said I should apply at 650TT. I might do it, just for the sake of having interview expeirence so I know what it's like. It's def weird to be sitting on the other side of an interview panel now. lol

This "amazing opportunity" would be a poor choice unless they fly 700-800 hrs, or more, a year *IF* your goal is to get to a a major airline. It's not what "amazing opportunity" you get offered it's about which choice gets you to match up with the candidates getting hired at the airlines (assuming that's your goal as it's the best paying and also offers the most time off. Not flying but on standby isn't completely 'time off'. Buddy's son was dragging his feet about getting his CFI. Pursued his MEL because he had several offers to fly bigger/nicer jets than a Hawker, as well as a King Air 350, once he had 500 TT. Cost him 1-1.5 (?) years of CFI time that would have had him at a regional already?? Instead it looks like he'll be at a regional next spring. Maybe a net loss of 6 months to get to a regional? If it ultimately costs him 6 months of longevity at his final job Hell be out $175,000+ for the 6 month delay. Which jet offer to he take once he got 500 TT? Flying a job that gets him to the regionals ASAP - a Cessna getting 1200+ hrs a year. Looks like he'll go from 500 hrs to 1450 in about 8 months. I think he realized the 'cool' job that does fly his brains out isn't worth it. The highest flying job, even if it's in a Piper Cub, is the path to achieving his goal of getting to a major airline career. If the Piper Cub gets him there 6 months sooner it's the same as being paid $30,000 a month (paid off at the end of his career) vis taking the 'cool' job now. Every job offer that slows your advancement towards your ultimate goal, be it by not flying much OR via a training contract that delays your departure, isn't being offered in your best interest. It's being done in their best interest at your expense.

Yup, I learned this between posting that and now as well. Apparently corporate guys get 200 hours or so a year. at that rate I won't make it where I need to be anywhere fast.

I'm leaning back towards going with a low paying caravan job that'll get me 100 hours a month and busting ass. Yeah they have contracts... I guess I'll deal with that bridge when I get there. I can supplement income with teaching at the police academy.

I could be in the regionals (or even major?) within a year. I really would like to fly for jet blue or spirit however. home based in FLL, flying an Airbus. what a dream

you might want to share the company name of a caravan 100+ hour a month low pay job. There are a handful of them, none of them really amount to much of what they promise and you wouldn’t want to get yourself into a contract. Makers air for example out of FLL says their SIC Caravan training is worth 35k. That’s a load of **** considering it’s in house and FSI is $~15k for a 10 day initial.

Tropic Ocean. I spoke with them and visited their ops... Also couple pilots who worked there that said 60-100 hour a month. Makers Air out of FXE I believe has a 20K contract. I agree those are some insanely high "training" costs, but that's just me passing on the info.

I found this thread while trying to research Tropic Ocean Airways and I'm glad I did! I'm in a very similar position to you and a few others on this thread, being LEO and having about ~420 TT (pun not intended, I actually have 419.8 as of this writing). I began flying back in high school, eventually got my IFR, CPL, and began the CFI courses but wasn't successful there since I was in college at the same time. I try to keep within my biannual flight review, but haven't flown frequently since 2016. I also got the notion to get out of law enforcement and back into aviation, but it seems I may be behind the curve since hiring slowed down for the airlines. I plan on getting current again soon, and getting a CSES seems like a good way to do it - along with a multi add-on.

Have you had any updates since last year? Did Tropic Ocean Airways work out for you? I'd like to talk more on PM or phone if you'd like, since I am also trying to figure out how to take the pay cut and move into a low time flying job.

Does Copa Airlines Permit Name Correction Due
 

lol, wut??????????

420 hours, excuse me, 419.8 hours; you’re definitely behind the hiring curve. Honestly would not make any move from a pension paying career to the airlines at this point when starting from scratch, which is kind of what you’re doing.

coming from someone who did it, who made the Jump, all I can say is KEEP PLUGGING AWAY. The business is cyclical. Slowdown today, tomorrow could be balls to the wall. But don’t let todays slowdown discourage you from trying as hard as you can from reaching the goal. Pretend as though the hiring wave is as strong as ever, and do everything you can to secure the job as soon as possible. 18 years law enforcement, it was a great job for a good while. But set yourself to get out as soon as you can. I can assure you, you will NOT look back.

I say keep going but don’t leave the pension career until the timing is right and you are at hireable minimums. This all depends on your age.

I was FD for 12 years. Started flying at age 32 in 2017. Was ready to go then Covid hit. I stayed at FD through that. Made a quick stop in regionals and made it to legacy now. I have 26 years left assuming 65 age holds steady and I keep my medical. Flying is way less stressful than paramedicizing the clients that like to use the 911 system. It pays better with a better schedule than I had at FD as well. I even get part of my pension at age 55.

It was the right switch at the right time for me. Could be a lost decade coming up. Could be a short dip before another giant hiring wave and economic boom. No one knows, just take as much info as you can, make a decision. Have a backup plan

This is good advice. Fly as much as you can and be ready for the next wave. Right now you won’t be getting hired at any good job without 5,000TT

This Industry is a head scratcher... The amount of guys/gals in recent legacy classes with 2,500hrs TT who got hired in 2022/2023 compared to what it took previously (and I guess currently). talk about timing and luck......

I hear yeah. My last 4 trips all 4 FO’s at UA less then a year all hired with 2500hrs. Boggles my mind. Good news (unless your low time) the hiring pendulum has swung the other way. 6-8000 hrs is competitive mins, 1000TPIC.

I wouldn't want to be at the bottom of a seniority list right now.

I'm not sure how that is considered good news.

If you're low time, and not where you want to be, congrats.. here's your stagnation.

If you're high-time and not where you want to be, you will be competing with others for far more limited slots.

If you're at the job you want, high, competitive mins like that means your seniority increases slower..

I'm not sure how that's good news for anyone. But hey I guess the old timers can go back to taking joy in the rest of us having to claw our way up again while those just ahead of us by 1 or 2 years got to smile and get handed a cjo at 1000 hrs.

Holy entitlement, batman. The last post was happy for a guy who made a tough decision with +/- 10k hours. That means another EWR CA spot, which trickles down to a few more vacancies at NK. That is one step closer to recalling a furloughed pilot who had to go [back] to a regional. So sorry you won't get your way.

Whispers of a nasty nasty vacancy bid out tomorrow. Time to break out the violins and launch the rescue boats.

How does nasty and vacancy go together?

What happened in the last few years was a historic aberration. Things are now returning to historic standards. So sorry your flight school lied to you, buckle up it's likely to get worse.

It sure seems like it with aircraft delivery issues and many ULCC/LCC pilots now looking to leave/have left/will leave. Retirements are still a real thing still but now youll see many more applicants in the stacks that are very well qualified.

Being at the top of spirit offers little to no security at this point so your argument is moot

Not sure that I'd call it good news, but your post certainly makes me see why it's welcome news to some. You're taking a snapshot of 24 months, give or take, and acting like that is the norm. Guess what? The majority of the members here went through what you're going through - many WAY more difficult. So yeah, you won't find much sympathy while whining that you weren't a miracle baby. Read the room, know your audience, etc. Possibly those that have been in the left seat as long as the miracle babies have been alive look forward to flying with guys with a smidge of experience again🤷‍♂️

why???????????