Question from a career changer
 

Hey all,

I pursued a career in aviation back in 2006-09 but ended up joining the military and got into a police career. I was just shy of getting my Commercial stuff before I gave up. I am 38 and after a good 12 years in policing and working up the ranks, I want to get back into aviation. Few friends who fly other majors have convinced me the time is now. I have about 350-400TT so I am way short of what I need for ATP, so I will sell some hobby items I've collected over the years and get into a time building program and get my CMEL/CSEL & R-ATP (AS degree in aviation).

I am located in South Florida, so Jetblue and Spirit has always been on my radar for FLL. Back when I was trying this for the first time it was my goal to end up there... but going to a regional with 500TT and making 12 dollars an hour was not something I could have sustained.

From what I have read and what my friends have told me, times have changed... I've heard some have gone straight from skyhawks to spirit etc.

This got me excited, and I am willing to sacrifice my career in law enforcement to make a career change halfway through it. I'm scared because it's an unknown but the family and I have decided we're going to do this.

That being said I wanted to know guys who fly spirit here what you think about your airline. is a guy like me going to stand a chance against other applicants once I have my R-ATP by the end of the year hopefully? I do hiring interviews at my agency, so I know most jobs look for a specific type of applicant. Will be weird to be on the other end of an interview.

Once I'm settled at a major like Spirit, I don't plan on changing to a legacy and start with another airline. I'm usually a lifer. I stayed at my local police department and never went to a "bigger & better paying" agency. I plan to do same with Spirit.

One of the biggest QOL from a workplace for me is I want a drama-free environment as much as possible. There is a lot of drama in a police department and sometimes I'd rather deal with criminals over administration and drama from other officers. It's out of control. Anyone who has worked law enforcement will know this.

Don’t put all of your eggs into one basket, although it is possible to go from Skyhawks to Spirit you need to be okay if you end up needing to build up a little jet time somewhere else. For Spirit you will also need to meet unrestricted ATP mins not R-ATP. You will also need to complete your ATP written.

Got it. It's just hopes.

and thank you for letting me know you need full ATP, not just R-ATP. I appreciate it.

I thought about plane-sense to build some turbine time, but I am open to going to a regional from the skyhawks. I just can't relocate so will need to commute. I forgot how that stuff works from my time doing the research over 10 years ago.

Just to clarify, you do not need to physically hold the atp certificate you need to meet the minimum experience requirements to obtain it, including having the written complete.

Ok. When I was doing this back in 09. ATP wasn't required. You'd go to a regional for $12 an hour with about 750TT as a FO, and when time to upgrade came, you'd have enough to get your ATP and the regional would pay it for you to get it. If you couldn't, you got stuck as a FO.

Fast forward to 2023, this isn't the case anymore. I guess it works a little different now.

You need to meet the requirements to obtain ATP, then you go to a school to get the ATP-CTP course done, and take the written. then you have 60 months to get the practical done. Will spirit do this practical part, or do I need this done when I get on with spirit (or other airlines for that matter)?

Spirit will do the practical for you on your type ride.

I’m going to caution you to think long and hard about what you are doing, and then think about it again.

This has nothing to do with what I think about Spirit or the merits of a career here.

You mentioned that you had considered the career before, but the low pay (which was never $12/hr, and I made some dogsh*t pay way back when) wasn’t “sustainable”. Maybe it wasn’t attractive, yet and still thousands of us slogged through it and made it work, so it was in fact possible.

You mention that a south Florida base would be the biggest factor in your interest in transitioning to this career. While a stint at a regional that would require commuting may be a short lived segue to a carrier with a south Florida base, there are no guarantees in this industry. If a position near you doesn’t materialize, are you ok with commuting for thirty years?

You mention a desire to avoid drama in your working environment. While I’ve seen enough YouTube cop cam videos to have a sense of what a patrol officer comes across on a given shift, working for an airline, no matter how prestigious the name on the tail is, is far from a drama-free experience. I have the benefit of a very nice schedule and lots of days off, and there are still days with operational issues, passenger difficulties, weather diversions, maintenance delays, and all the other things that keep you on your toes.

My point is that while there are some opportunities today that may not have been available more than ten years ago, it’s still the same job it was back then. Jumping from cessnas to Spirit shouldn’t be the deciding factor in your decision. We could have blue airplanes by the time you are eligible to apply. Outside events have shifted the course of this industry multiple times throughout history, and they will again at some point. Make sure you consider all possible scenarios and your contentment with one’s that may not go the way you would prefer.

I am considering everything. I guess it's just a best case scenario. I have been a member of this forum since I started. I learn alot from here and experience of others which guides me decision making.

I know the struggle in the beginning years of anything. I started as a reserve cop because nobody was hiring, living on ramen noodles and working a part time job because my PD wouldn't pay me while my gf (wife now) supported me.

Now I have a family so it gets bit more quirky. but from what I'm seeing the movement is pretty quick. I can never have the knowledge of you guys that's actually in the industry, but we got regionals paying my years worth salary (plus some in some cases) just to get direct entry captains. Talk about desperate need of pilots. lol

I def won't enjoy communiting, but also being in the military in the past and having to leave my family to get stuff done, we've made it happen before. I would just hope I could eventually get to a local airline down the road.

I read each response and take it into consideration, so thank you for that.

Spirit loves to hire pilots that don’t care about being the highest paid. You’re a shoe in. I know you’re just making a post on the internet but once you’re here don’t be that guy. Absolutely want to be the highest paid!

BTW if you live in south Florida at your age and experience I would strongly consider any pathway to American Airlines

Liberty University (online program that works with local flight schools) is now partnered with Spirit to bring people on board at RATP minimums.

https://www.liberty.edu/news/2023/09...ilot-pipeline/

"After reaching Restricted Airline Transport Pilot (R-ATP) minimum requirements, program pilots must successfully complete the Spirit-funded and approved Airline Transport Pilot Certification Training Program (ATP CTP) and Jet Transition Course. Graduates who meet all program requirements will join the team as Spirit first officers."

I've worked in several other fields, mil and white collar, and have plenty of buds from the mil reserves who are cops... FBI, Deputies and everything in between.

Airline aviation is essentially zero drama compared to most other careers.

In the old days I did used to intervene in the cabin, usually with the intent of smoothing feathers, talking down down BOTH an FA and a pax, avoiding delays, and getting everybody where they needed to go.

Not anymore, after all the youtube and twitter shenanigans 99% of airline pilots just stay in the cockpit, lock the door if necessary and call for customer service and LE if needed. Goof off on your phone will other people deal with drama.

Drama with cabin crew? Don't date them, avoid most of them on layovers, and be nice to them. Even the ones with chips on their shoulders who are looking for drama. Nasty FA ignores your request for coffee, etc? Grin and bear it. The bad ones cannot pick fights with EVERY pilot they fly with or they won't have a job.

White collar office politics is toxic, and you usually have to play the game... if you get outmaneuvered it can sideline your career, or get you on the layoff list (there's ALWAYS a layoff list, and the economy will turn south eventually). It's simply unavoidable, and the sociopaths thrive in it.

LE is treading a very fine line between getting shot, getting jailed for murder, getting fired and losing their cert, and getting sued for everything they're worth. Go online and watch videos of all these entitled, outraged karens who try to turn every routine traffic stop into a kent state massacre and federal civil rights case.



Yes, make sure you have more than one path to success.

Also if you're going to do it, get on with it and hustle... the retirement wave is peaking, and the current unprecedented opportunities will not be available for too much longer (it probably won't stop suddenly, but rather taper off into the next decade).

Don't make the mistake of thinking it's safe to stay at a regional, despite the astronomical pay raises, that business model is in serious question. If you have 25 years are are 59 years old OK I get it. But under 40 (or 50) with no seniority skin in the game needs to focus on majors.

as far as pay.. I will start 1st/2nd year making more than what I make at a veteran sgt. so no complaints, but I won't mention that lol

Yep, something else I'm looking at. None of these pathway things existed back then I don't think, so I'm trying to understand them. The way it worked at Delta Connection academy was you'd get your licenses, CFI-I, then comair would give you an opportunity for an interview. that's it. I don't even know if comair exists today. Working at a legacy was a dream for regional or even major guys I think.

I looked at envoy, but there were some pretty negative posts about that company and they say it's nearly impossible to get hired at AA if you're at envoy since they don't wanna take it from their regionals. I dunno. I'm overwhelmed with information.

This doesn't include me getting current and relearning many things that I've forgotten over the years. Hopefully I can still fly a plane LOL

Yes, exactly. I don't know if I'm gonna get shot right now, end up in a civil lawsuit, do the wrong thing as a supervisor, I do my best to stay out of it and do the right thing. It has worked out very well for me in the last 12 years or so.

Aviation isn't without risk. You are responsible for many passengers and it's go go go. one wrong thing you do, and that line between life and death can apporach fast. there are no rooms for any errors. I would assume if you put the flaps up or gear up too late, it's documented and you'll have some explaining to do.

But there is so much drama here. other people critique your work whether you did good or bad. you do 100 things that are good and get very little appreciation, but one little mistake, your career is on the line. you have other officers/supervisors fighting you for that next rank up. Don't even get me started with the weird things between female/male cops. It's stressful. a friend of mine who used to be cop like me but got back into aviation and now going to delta from frontier is the one who has been telling me flying is so much better and there is no better time. he said the worst drama he had on his flight yesterday was he had to call an FA to block the door with the galley thing so he can use the bathroom. He loves his job, shows me his schedule. shows me his salary and I'm jealous. Very jealous.

my only hurdle is I need to finish up CMEL/CSEL, get the almost 1000 hours somehow and get this dang ATP-CTP done. I am going to sell my beloved corvette and that should be enough to get me to finish my commercial, and allow me to buy about 1000 hours on a plane share time building thing. I believe I might be able to reach this goal in about 12 months.

I looked at MESA and that program they have where you payback your hours you build up, but I can't leave me job and dedicate 7 months to flying 144 hours a week and move away 3.5 hours leaving family behind lol. I don't even know if they're accepting applications.

I will just need to rough it out and get as much flight time as I can get and either try planesese at 750 and take a paycut for a year or two, or build upto 1500 on my own and get to a bigger airline, regional or major.

it's alot of thinking and a career change to better provide for my family at 38 is scary.

My point wasn’t to compare LE drama or Corporate America office politics to airline pilot drama, though LE experience can vary dramatically between and LA, Miami, Chicago beat cops and my sheriff neighbor who sits in his car all day in a posh area and picks up tons of overtime at concerts festivals and parades and has never drawn his weapon.

And while you’re right that the days of the captain dusting off their cap and striding back into the cabin to deliver a final word of public authority in the day of viral cell phone videos have given way to calling ops for a customer service person have alleviated some of that. Still, it is replaced by other things like time away from home and family, juniority not allowing the holidays and birthdays and being on the sidelines at sports games, sitting in a crash pad across the country on reserve, etc.

Again, I’m not telling him not to go for it, or that his goal is unattainable. I’m just making sure he sees at least a few of the reasons he decided to forego this career path years ago like a prolonged stint in the regionals or maybe not getting the major of his choice and looking at years of commuting to another are still a real possibility.

When I used the term pathway I didn’t necessarily mean structured program. Coming to spirit and then going to AA is a very viable pathway that hundreds have done the last couple years. If you’re approaching 40 with no seniority on the line yet I would be thinking legacy only as my end goal. Your overall progression will be faster and better as long as living in base is a constant.

I don’t want to come across as disrespectful bc LE is so very underpaid for the risks. My best friend is a deputy. I try to get him to become a pilot all the time. The risks will be much less and the pay much much higher.

That said you cannot compare wages at spirit to your wages at your LE job. We need to compare our wages to other major airline pilots I.e. Delta.

While the change in career will probably make real quantifiable changes to your life, it doesn’t change that we are still under compensated. Not caring about being the highest paid is what Spirit loves in pilots and it kills us in ever contract. Caring about it matters. I’m not happy just making more than LEOs. It’s a completely different career.

I understand, I know unions all too well and what you mean.

the pay-scale and dynamic, I will have to understand for myself when I get to the airlines I suppose. I can complain about my wages and how I make less than some other departments here, but only us in the field will understand. Not sure where spirit is in the pay-scale. Friend from frontier said they are the lowest paid and he's going delta after 1.5 yeras with them.

I would love to work for AA and fly to my home country in europe one day, but It's so hard to predict the future.

say I go to spirit, and 3-4 yers later I get on with AA. will they put me in an airbus, or they don't care i'm type rated and they'll put me in whatever they need? not sure how all that works.

I def don't like changing companies/depts. I stuck with mine for a while because I didn't want to start from another, go through field training again on nights and have to prove my worth to others.

It is a lot of information. Programs, incentives, offers are changing so fast a lot of it could very well no longer be in place or accurate by the time you're ready (for better or for worse). Set short term goals or else it can all become overwhelming.

Set your mind to focus on the next rating and work on that for now, when that is done work on the next rating, next 100 hours etc. Stay out of debt as much as possible. If you can, keep working your job to provide for your family and fly on the side. It may take a little longer but you have a family that is your #1 priority and needs to be provided for.

Sometimes you have set backs or feel like it's too much, just keep plugging away and remember to take breaks so you don't end up hating flying by trying to condense everything into a short period of time. Good luck and have fun. Feel free to PM me as I was a career changer with a young family and worked evening shifts and flew/took online classes in the mornings.

I don’t disagree but unfortunately bc hiring is so fast and furious right now time is not on his side. Ideally he could quit his job and fly full time. The only good hedge would be continue to work as a LEO and if he’s on a 4on 4off schedule he needs to literally fly 10hrs a day on all his days off.

Taking the leisurely route could have major seniority QOL/money consequences down line when things ultimately slow down perhaps when he’s in his 50s barring other black swan events.

Sell the vette yesterday and start flying now! Get the commercial ASAP and then start time building every single off day. You may be able to find a kid to split time with you. One of you acting as safety pilot and one on instruments so you both log it at half price. Normally I’d say become a CFI and build time by getting paid but since you have a career and trying to fill your off days with students could be incredibly fatiguing as well as inconsistent, I say put up the money with the vette and just fly as much as possible.

As soon as you are close in time where options like regionals or 135 flying are available start doing research on what is possible and what works for you to get you to a legacy carrier as fast as possible. Right now it should be commercial and build time as quickly as you can. Start now!

Its completely insane to try and timebuild 1000 additional hours.
Start thinking banner towing and who does what and where.
Florida season coming up so hurry with your commercial.
When you get to 600-700 hrs start looking at PlaneSense or similar.

So wife and I spoke and we looked at many ways to get this done. There are so many key points to hit, I felt like a war strategist.

We work a 2-3-2 schedule, so I pretty much work 14 days out of the year. week one I work Mon, Tue, Fri, Sat Sun. Week two I work Wedn Thu. that's plenty of flying time I think. I will def need a day off here and there.

I found a company in miami area that offers 152 time building. about 50 dollars an hour and you share with someone. I will sell my corvette, which will net me about 45K to finish CSEL/CMEL and log as many hours as I can. During this time, I will continue to work. I am meeting up with an instructor Tuesday to start working on getting back up in the air and start working on commercial. This is also the day I will try to sell the love of my life to pay for my flights.

Once I reach 750, I was thinking try planesense or something similar and quit my PD job and yolo at this point. I'll drop from making 110K to 40K so this will be hard. I can get to ATP hours and get the ATP-CTP and start trying with regionals. but at

this point, I'm not sure what the airline industry will be doing. It's har to plan that far ahead.

I am obviously going to buy another corvette when I make captain eventually. that's for sure. LOL

I really really really regret not finishing my CSEL/CMEL back in 09. I was doing a 141, and was about 3 lessons away from a check ride along with the long solo. I have like 17 hours of ME already and nothing to show for. shoot me

If I could find a part time flying job (besides CFI) I could probably get some more hours on days off as a 135 pilot or something. I looked at some "taxis" that could fly out of PBI of FLL to the bahamas, but I can't find them. I believe this was a thing back in 09 when guys were looking for hours.

It’s not completely insane. He has 400 right now. Time build to whatever is necessary 400-600hrs is not out of question. He has an asset to sell worth some money. Buying or renting an airplane and splitting the time with a partner is very doable. For someone starting out at 20yrs old w no money I’d be suggesting something else.

BTW
Tropic Ocean Airways is the seaplane operator in sheltair at FLL. They have a legit SIC program in their op spec. They hire SICs with 250hrs and a commercial sea plane rating. I have flown with a couple guys at spirit that did this and it’s a quick track.

Get the commercial single land
go to Jack Brown and get the sea rating in a weekend.
Go to Tripic Ocean Air as an SIC and get your multi land added at some point in your free time if you don’t already have it.
At 1200hrs become a PIC at Tropic for 300hrs
Get ATP CTP completed
Go to spirit and immediately apply at AA

Actually worked at a banner towing company back in 07. I was a rigger. The owner used to let us take his trainer 172 for free as long as we filled it up with gas. was a good gig. That company is now owned by someone else I think. My buddy and I logged good hours on that junk. lol

You've been a goldmine of help. Thank you for that.

I don't know what their salary is, so I don't know if I could quit my job for it, but I'll have to see how to do it.

I wish there was a page for that airline here so I could ask a few questions. I will def look into that.

I also really wish they would accept part time positions and I could fly on my days off.

This is the way. Especially that last paragraph.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/part-135/107840-tropic-ocean-airways.html

This probably very outdated as the pilot hiring environment is a complete 180 from where it was when this thread started. My guess is things are much different on topics such as compensation and culture than they were then. I’d say give them a call and ask them what the pay and schedule is like. I’m sure they are losing pilots and would be happy to give you their rosy version.

According to their thread the owner is ex mil so that could be a bonus for you.

webisite is www.flytropic.com

There are more ways to get where you want to go but given your age/experience/location I’d give them strong consideration. Single engine floats would usually mean nothing for airline flying Boeings and airbuses but not these days. I know for sure we’ve hired more than a couple guys straight from their flying caravans. I have no personal experience with the company

Sadly you are battle competing interests. In one hand you can’t afford to quit your current job (totally understandable) but on the other hand you are fighting time/seniority/black swan event, all of which can be minimized by getting in sooner rather than later.

At some point you need to decide if this is what you really want and go full speed as every month you are not on a seniority list is that many more people above you.

If I were you I would go the seaplane SIC route, sell the things you mentioned earlier and instead of buying flight time with that, supplement your income and get it done. This is only true however if you are positive this career is actually what you want. It would suck to leave a good paying police job only to realize you hate flying for the airlines.

Best of luck.

Yep, this might be it. I am curious how fast I would be able to build with hours with them.

I could take what I get from corvette's left over towards assistance with bills, and I could probably teach at the police academy as well part time on days off. My dept just filled a part time position, so I won't be able to work part time here. they hold grudges so I don't think they'll ever offer me a volunteer position to keep my cert to stay active.

it's a viable apporoach compared to planesense. Planesense does have a "home base" out of PBI which is 10 minutes from my house. but I will need 750 for them. tropic ocean is about an hour away and I can get to work at 250.

Will look into getting hired at the police academy part time as well.

What he said can’t be emphasized enough. You’re already behind the main wave of hiring. Delaying longer than you need to in order to maintain same style of living, money accustomed to, etc; it could literally be a few million dollars difference in your career earnings.

Remember every day there are legacy pilot slots being filled that won’t be open again for another 20-30-40 years. Every day you wait is another day you lose seniority, lose the window, 1 day closer to furlough, etc.

Everything happens for a reason. I will get to it asap and do my best to jump start it.

They were very fast with emailing back. I will have a phone call conversation with them on Tuesday at 11 so they can answer my questions.

I look forward to it. This might be it. That post you had linked is old, but there were some guys saying there is a contract obligation which would really slow me down I guess. one mentioned airliners will see you as high risk and won't wanna hire you as well. Don't know the truth to that.

Hey, it's turbine time though :)

I wouldn’t give any of that ANY weight. The post Covid hiring environment is something like we haven’t seen since the 60s. People with 1500hrs and wet ATPs are getting multiple offers from major airlines. I can’t say a single engine turbine float pilot will get multiple offers in a year or two but I know we are hiring those guys now without question. We are hiring piston CFIs. I’d rather fly with a guy that’s been back in forth to the Bahamas in SFL weather than a CFI. I also know as soon as you complete the Spirit training with a new A320 type you are marketable anywhere and getting stuck here isn’t the same as getting stuck at a regional.

All of this info is today and things change fast which is why the advice to move fast. The hiring numbers are staggering. It’s a bit frustrating for some of us too bc many of us are waiting to see if this merger gets approved before deciding to cut bait and move on. Problem is while we wait someone else is getting hired and getting senior to us somewhere else, as well as most likely younger. It’s a painful waiting game. Imo if the merger doesn’t get approved this place will go to hell under Frontier or we will shrink to death on our own as everyone floods out the door.

YOU may be waiting for the merger decision to decide what to do with your career (Which by the way is a stupid thing to do. if you want to go, go now) but to state that many people here are doing the same thing is disingenuous. The overwhelming majority of this airline was hired long before any merger was on the table, and those that stayed didn’t do so out of hopes they would one day work for F9 or B6. The only painful part of the waiting game came from a crappy TA to bridge us between a JCBA or going back to our own negotiations. Most pilots at Spirit are here because they want to be here. If the B6 merger is shot down, a subsequent F9 merger is extremely unlikely. Also unlikely is a flood, exodus, or whatever superfluous analogy you want to use for people leaving. Some pilots will leave, most will stay, yellow planes still fly.

I can almost guarantee I was hired before you and I agree however the events of the moment will have great influence on our collective futures. And while I did t get started here to work at JetBlue, the other two options are pretty aweful. This management is clearly done running this company and it shows. I also have lost confidence that the ULCC model can grown further in the US. Many will leave and we will shrink to profitability is my prediction if the merger isn’t approved

I am on it. I work this weekend and family and I going to disney Monday. Come tuesday, I am meeting with the CFI who will get me through my CSEL/CMEL and get me current and I will get to studying and get proficient in IFR. I believe by November I will have CMEL/CSEL done. I'll go get my water landing stuff and I do need high performance (I have complex already).

I will then get on with Tropic Ocean and start to build time. I do have to see if they require contracts or something. I'm a very hard worker, I believe it will work out.

I did fly glass for a while before my flight review expired in 14 and I haven't flown since, and my last stuff with IFR was on steam gauges and VOR needles back in 2009. I have minimal GPS IFR experience. Maybe 4-5 apporoaches.

I got alot of studying to do to refresh my memory.

I flew with paper. ipads weren't even allowed to be used back then. I believe it will be easier now. that G1000 when I used it made flying so easy.

Sounds good. Just do your due diligence. Tropic is only an option and seems like a good one but I’ve never worked there or had first hand knowledge

Maybe they'll leave, and give me a spot to fill :D

They are calling me on Tuesday. I told them I have questions, and they said they'll gladly answer my questions... I have considered doing tropic and time build, but I won't be able to afford both.

If I make about 500-600 hours a year It's going to take some time. I'm worried I fall behind the "curve" that we talked about. I don't think I'll make 20 hours a week. I don't know.

What is the salary for FO/CA
How many hours will I be able to make
Do I have a contract?
What are some other duties besides flying
What is the hiring process like
what is the day of a life of a seaplane pilot there
what is the environment like
What kind of schedule
121 jumpseat?
Logging? Log sic?

Yeah, I’ve been here since before I made this account
<————

If you’re single digits in system seniority and just now questioning the ULCC model and anguishing over a merger approval to finally decide on a late career hop to a legacy I formally call BS

Maybe you've been there as long as I've had this account? lol.

I sent you a PM..

The time to have this epiphany was 2014. Given the amount of people younger than you hired since 2014, the hiring wave as a motivator is specious in present circumstances. I would personally complete the LEO pension, then go play airline pilot as a second payer career. Now, if your PD pension plan is non-competitive (at least 50%-75% immediate), or you're simply that miserable in your vocation that it's destroying your home life, then I guess it's a push. Good luck to ya.