Originally Posted by afterburn81 (Post 3866344)

Earning 100k at American Airlines requires more work than earning 100k at Spirit as a pilot. You can however earn far more in the end at American. Even Delta and UAL. They’re going to make people work for their money.

Originally Posted by JulesWinfield (Post 3866369)

What? I blocked a little over 400 hours in 2024 at AA on 1st and 2nd year pay and made almost double that. I also flew way less redeyes than I did at Spirit.

Originally Posted by afterburn81 (Post 3866344)

Earning 100k at American Airlines requires more work than earning 100k at Spirit as a pilot. You can however earn far more in the end at American. Even Delta and UAL. They’re going to make people work for their money.

Originally Posted by JulesWinfield (Post 3866369)

What? I blocked a little over 400 hours in 2024 at AA on 1st and 2nd year pay and made almost double that. I also flew way less redeyes than I did at Spirit.

Originally Posted by afterburn81 (Post 3866344)

Why would you assume labor concessions would be their ONLY solution to the problem?

I see it as a high probability, there will be some kind of financial relief through modified labor agreements. Spirit pilots may be some of the lowest per hour flown compensated pilots. However, due to some pretty sweet work rules and contractual agreements, the overall burden on the company probably bears some room for helping improve the state of the company.

With that being said, I’d imagine there will be hourly rate increases in the near future. And the ability to make equal to or more will be a thing. The change will come in how hard we have to work to obtain the same income.

Earning 100k at American Airlines requires more work than earning 100k at Spirit as a pilot. You can however earn far more in the end at American. Even Delta and UAL. They’re going to make people work for their money.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44 (Post 3866533)

Spirit’s peer airlines are Breeze, Allegiant, Frontier, Sun Country, and Avelo.

How well are the Spirit pilots paid compared to the above airlines? If above average, look out. You’d be amazed how many concessions pilots are willing to accept when the alternative is no job at all. If you don’t think they’ll threaten you and use that leverage, you’re kidding yourselves. There’s no way to tell if the threat is real, but it has to be taken seriously which means the concessions will happen. If the restructure is anything like the legacies in the mid 2000’s, they’ll be multiple rounds of concessions.

Originally Posted by YdidIChosePilot (Post 3866544)

Spirit should just pack it up then and shut it all down. Almost everyone has a class date or interview right now that is not close to retirement. There is a massive group in the AA pool right now leaving in the next 2 months. Many for United too... Spirit is literally over if they come for concessions. There will be no pilots left. I dont know one person that isnt leaving Spirit now. 2025 is going to be a blood bath. Add concessions in there and i think the company shuts down due to no staffing

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44 (Post 3866533)

Spirit’s peer airlines are Breeze, Allegiant, Frontier, Sun Country, and Avelo.

How well are the Spirit pilots paid compared to the above airlines? If above average, look out. You’d be amazed how many concessions pilots are willing to accept when the alternative is no job at all. If you don’t think they’ll threaten you and use that leverage, you’re kidding yourselves. There’s no way to tell if the threat is real, but it has to be taken seriously which means the concessions will happen. If the restructure is anything like the legacies in the mid 2000’s, they’ll be multiple rounds of concessions.

Originally Posted by BKbigfish (Post 3866583)

Why would you post this? Is Ford & Harrison slipping you a little cash on the side to come onto the NK forum to try and manage expectations? This whole “peer group” nonsense needs to go away. It hurts all ALPA pilots in the long run. Kind of shocking to see a fellow pilot actively perpetuating that narrative.

Originally Posted by havoste (Post 3866564)

With every 1 capt that has a CJO there are a lot more 'going down with the ship'. Also I'd say most of the FOs have met haven't heard a peep due to 'no turbine PIC'. Don't think the attrition will be nearly as bad as you say in 2025.

Originally Posted by Margaritaville (Post 3866621)

He's a hat wearer. They just can't help themselves but to come to all the non triangle forums and talk down to everyone. It's sad really. Then they wonder why they have the reputation they do.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44 (Post 3866533)

Spirit’s peer airlines are Breeze, Allegiant, Frontier, Sun Country, and Avelo.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44 (Post 3866533)

How well are the Spirit pilots paid compared to the above airlines? If above average, look out. You’d be amazed how many concessions pilots are willing to accept when the alternative is no job at all. If you don’t think they’ll threaten you and use that leverage, you’re kidding yourselves. There’s no way to tell if the threat is real, but it has to be taken seriously which means the concessions will happen. If the restructure is anything like the legacies in the mid 2000’s, they’ll be multiple rounds of concessions.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3866750)

There's a grain of truth to this.

I don't believe it, and neither should you. But it's certainly a line of argument the company would pursue in court *if* they decided to make the case that the current CBA was excessive and they wanted to get some relief on that.

At face value I'd say that would drive attrition and damage future recruiting to the point where it would be counter-productive to the recovery plan. My shop experienced that prior to our current CBA, and they had far better prospects than NK right now.

But if F9 is in the mix, maybe they hope they can get the JCBA closer to F9's CBA?



What's the MEC makeup? It's true that senior lifers might well give concessions rather than start over as gear-slingers. It's happened in the past... and many seniors remember Eastern. Silver lining today is that most folks *should* be able to get jobs, and would likely be better off in 3-5 years after they rip the bandaid off.

Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo (Post 3866761)

MEC can’t just “give concessions,”’major changes to the CBA require membership ratification

Originally Posted by hifive (Post 3866857)

The airline is dead. Those who cant see that are just naive

Originally Posted by dera (Post 3866835)

Not directly. But they are in the negotiation table with Jerry Glass and a judge, and that's where they can give things for the judge to rule on.
An arbitrated/forced through Ch11 court CBA does not require a membership ratification.

Originally Posted by fcoolaiddrinker (Post 3866891)

https://repository.law.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2059&context=fac_
articles

here’s an article that outlines leverage (the monetary value of any potential court forced concessions) unions have used to become stakeholders in bankruptcy as opposed to just trying to limit the damage. With APA and FAPA being the most recent airline examples.
it’s a bit long winded but the you’ll get the idea after the first few pages.
You have leverage even in bankruptcy. It’s up to your mec to capture it. They still need pilots to move airplanes.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3866750)

But if F9 is in the mix, maybe they hope they can get the JCBA closer to F9's CBA?

Originally Posted by hifive (Post 3866857)

The airline is dead. Those who cant see that are just naive

Originally Posted by Born2FlyAv8R (Post 3866980)

welcome to the show - where have ya been the whole time?

Originally Posted by Margaritaville (Post 3866621)

He's a hat wearer. They just can't help themselves but to come to all the non triangle forums and talk down to everyone. It's sad really. Then they wonder why they have the reputation they do.

Originally Posted by Powderkeg (Post 3866954)

Irrelevant.

If F9 and NK merge the new company needs the JCBA more than the pilots. There isn't a single F9 pilot I know that would agree to calling past-due contracts at places like Allegiant and Sun Country as our peer groups. Any concessions given away by NK won't be agreed to by the F9 group working under a 6+ year old CBA for a company that claims they are making (about to make) double digit margins.

Originally Posted by Born2FlyAv8R (Post 3866980)

welcome to the show - where have ya been the whole time?

Originally Posted by hifive (Post 3867072)

Let me guess, you're one of those heros "Going down with the ship" Can't wait to see how that works out for you.

Originally Posted by CatPilot1 (Post 3867076)

Gettin’ a bit nervous are you?

Originally Posted by hifive (Post 3867077)

You were probably one of those guys who bought $200,000 in shares and said "I didn't think the merger was going to go through anyway" I wish you all the very best of luck. Looks like you'll need it.

Originally Posted by CatPilot1 (Post 3867094)

It’ll all work itself out for you in the end. Nervousness causes stress, which leads to a lack of sleep; resulting in an untimely death. Nobody wants that for you.

Originally Posted by hifive (Post 3867104)

Hitting a nerve? Read the first post. It mentions the word Niave which was in no way pointed at you. It'll be great when to have the last laugh. Oh wait, I was just nervous. dont mind me. You're going to be fine and I'll be dead.