Why autopilot above 24000?
 

I been told by some friends who fly corporate aircraft that it seems to be a wide rule that autopilot must be used above 24000 (scheduled air service too), this came up around discussion of the Citation X. Is this due to the X be unstable above that altitude in thin air? The speed? Because ww2 fighters flew above that by hand with no problems at almost 500 mph? Any insights? thanks!

If I remember correctly, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong.... but it's an RVSM requirement. Doesn't mean you can't hand fly it past FL240, just that you need an operable AP on board. I usually hand fly up to cruise (usually FL350-FL370), and have noticed no appreciable decrease in stability- at least not in the ERJ.

Hmmm, I was under the impression that he auto-pilot had to be used when entering RVSM airspace

From Appendix 4 of 91-RVSM:

An automatic altitude-control system should be operative and engaged during level cruise, except when circumstances such as the need to retrim the aircraft or turbulence require disengagement. In any event, adherence to cruise altitude should be done by reference to one of the two primary altimeters

For more information on DRVSM than you could ever possibly want, cruise on over to http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/.../enroute/rvsm/

As far as your friends' use of autopilot, that requirement may be specific to the Citation X or to their SOP. Many aircraft have altitude limitations with an inop yaw damper, and the need for George to be flying may be something similar.

autopilot must be on when entering RVSM airspace FL290 to FL 410

handflying isn't allowed..that would be a FAR bust

The autopilot must be on when IN CRUISE in RVSM airspace. There's nothing that prohibits your from handflying climbs and descents, or manually leveling out.

i know, i'm just saying in general..when in RVSM you're going to have the AP on. Thanks for the correction though.

Sure thing- in the end it all comes down to the verbage and technicalities... just wanted to clarify. :)

I try to have it on before the RadAlt hits 610 :D

thanks for the clarification on that everyone...I will have to dig some on the citation x tech info

Your friends are probably getting confused with the requirement to have operable DME equipment above FL240.
Autopilots are required in RVSM airspace between FL290 and FL410, but not above or below.

PHEW!!! Thanks for the clarification, Josh!! I was wondering why the fed on board my flight the other day wasn't screaming at me, until I read your post! :D

Why are you hand flying into the FL's with a fed on board? You should have George on so you can free up brain bytes as an extra measure to stay out of trouble. Maybe it's just me, but if I was your Capt that's what I'd expect you to do.

We were dodging weather in the climb and at the rate Jorge moves, it was just easier to hand fly. I told the CA and the Fed, and they both agreed it was a good idea. It was nice above FL200, so I thought "What the heck, I'll take it up to 2000' short of cruise and let Jorge handle the level off." They didn't seem to mind, and stared debating the age 65 deal...

Worked fine, no fatalities! :D

There is no "hand flying" limitation on the X autopilot....perhaps it is in someone's ops specs. It hand flies just fine at .92/FL410+

awesome thanks for the info ! i was pretty sure it could ...guess it must be a rule or sop at someplaces

I like your avatar, NJA Capt! Does the X have the same crap Honeywell system the ERJ has? Please tell me they went with the IC-1000s instead of the -600s!

From AC 61-107A

It's very interesting reading the discussion on hand flying on here.

I just talked to an instructor in my glider-club who flies for Lufthansa CityLine as a captain and is also a chief-pilot (I think) on the Canadair Fleet - definatly at least a training captain. I told him that I had spoken to pilots from the US and read on here that they would usually hand fly up until at least 10,000 feet or more. He immedeatly said that he as a captain would not allow a F/O to do so! He said, on rare occasions, OK, but not as a habbit... He said that company procedures where Autopilot ON at 600feet. I asked him why and asked if the hand flying skills didn't get lost. He said that you needed your absolute concentration for radio calls, freq. changes, traffic and monitoring the instruments. He said the "pilot not flying" would have WAY too much work if the PF hand flew the aircraft. Hand flying skills were trained on rare occasions that the do an entire flight "raw data" with a training captain for example.

I have to say, I don't really think he was right - especially how harsch he was! He said that every pilot saying he would always hand fly up to 10,000feet was an idiot... (sorry guys, just quoting! Not my opinion anyway...:D;)) But what can I know - I mean, he is a highly experienced airline captain...

What are your thoughts? Would you say this is just a different mentality in Europe? He said, especially around places like Chicago you would have to look out for traffic and couldn't possibly be hand flying...

Whatever, I'd like to do it like you guys :p- one of the reasons I'm moving back to the States after school...

Best regards,
Jakob

In my opinion, there's a reason for automation. It makes life simpler, and I'll readily agree that in most circumstances, it does a better job than any human can.

However, pilots also need to understand that there is a need to know when to use it and when not to. I've seen examples (either in training or in real life) where flight crews have gotten into serious trouble (including an accident) when they rely too heavily on a computer/autopilot/FMS that isn't getting the job done (including when they know it isn't doing the job right).

As a captain, I brief my expectations regarding the use of automation, particularly when operating in and out of high density or unfamiliar airports. I personally have no problem with a crew member hand-flying (in any conditions where the regs allow), provided that it doesn't cause undue burden on the other crewmembers. I would also expect that when operating in conditions where levels of stress and workload are increased, that automation will be used. (Such as in bad weather or during emergencies/abnormal operations or when flying complex arrivals/departures).

I don't ALWAYS hand fly to 10,000-25,000 but do it most of the time. I also hand fly below 10,000 ft on the arrivals routinely. My companies policy is the Captain determines the level of automation to be used

I can just hear the guys who don't even have autopilots laughing.

Honestly it is a pain in the ass when you get some Joe Flyer that thinks he is impressing you with his hand flying skills in a heavy work load environment. Leaving ATL, ORD, DFW these places get hairy enough sometimes for the pilot not flying that when you now have to manage the bugs for the "Hand Flyer" calls get missed or confused adding to the work load. Frankly, turn it on and its a much easier job. Have a little consideration for the non flying pilot and go rent a Cessna if you want to impress yourself. my $.02

Yep

Scary thought. Just do me a favor and don't go joy riding a 172 without someone to handle the radios for you.

THere are a whole lot of us who routinely fly single pilot (with and without an autopilot) into all those busy places. I DO agree that proper use of automation is a GREAT thing. But I have seen many more pilots lose the ability to hand fly than those who lose the ability to command George. (And before I hear the "everything happens faster in a jet" argument, many of us "dinks" can keep up pretty well below 10,000)

Are you serious? Maintaining skills at an outstation is one thing JFK, ORD etc. is much different. Give the NFP a break so he can enjoy the view outside instead of babysitting the super pilot. I do agree with your other above post. Oft times turning george off is the only way to go as it's simply to slow to react.

I think we agree: if the automation is helpfull, USE IT. I have just seen WAY TOO many people who could not fly without it. And, as you seem to agree, if automation is a hinderence, DUMP IT. And if handflying is a hinderence, DUMP IT TOO!

Oh, and while I was stationed at an outstation, I fly into those busy places.... with an autopilot that flies to private pilot standards.

I asked my dad if he hand-flys at all (Capt 75/76 at USAIR) and he said most times up to 10,000 feet he does hand fly and performs basic turns and such to see if the airplane is handling normally and no malfunctions/abnormalities in the flight controls....then usually autopilot for cruise and hands flys the landing. Interesting point he brought up that you could miss if you turned on the autopilot right after rotation!

Jakob, one thing about Europe is they have these very strict noise abatement departures. I used to do them out of Cologne. It's easier to fly them with the automation and, I believe I read something a while back that the company wants them flown using the automation.

If you were in the habit of doing that day in, day out, I can see where a guy would come to think "that's just how airliners should be flown".

I remember that Germany doesn't allow visual approaches, either.

When it's easier to move bugs and spin knobs than it is to fly the airplane, I let george fly. When it's harder to tell george what to do than to just do it myself, I do it.

Seems to me to be the only way that makes sense.

Thats a good rule of thumb

I've been flying around the busy European airspace (Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Venice, Brussels, Lisbon etc) for four years now and your instructor (or rather his culture) is nuts. There are times when you have to engage the AP, especially while briefing the approach and landing and completing checklist items. On departure all the tough work should be accomplished on the ground and all you've got to do is fly the SID and listen up for the calls.

I typically hand fly to altitude (or some high intermediate level off that I think ATC will stick me at for more than two or three minutes) then give it over to George. On landing, once the approach is briefed and I'm close in to the airport (and not shooting an approach down to minimus) I'll take over around 30 miles before landing or after coming through FL06-100. I prefer hand flying. 1 it is fun, 2 the autopilot can (and has failed), 3 at times it is quicker and less complicated to make the turning descents in the terminal area manually.

If the Captains don't trust the FO's to fly, and call for checklist items, and monitor the instruments, and listen to the radio (you know, all that basic flying stuff that you do by yourself while training in a 172) then I would suspect that there is a deficiency in the training of Lufthansa Cityline pilots.

--Last paragraph deleted due to previous inability to read--

Actually we do. They are called Line Check Airmen and IOE Instructors. Personally, I think that any good Captain is a "Training Captain" in that they mentor those that they fly with and are always learning themselves. :D

How else will I drink my coffee and read the paper if the AP is off??

My mistake. I thought he was talking about a senior FO's training to be captains. I read something somewhere else about international flying and make up of flight crews that must have confused me... probably from the start.

I'm aware of check airmen and IOE instructors.

I totally agree about every captain / PIC being a training captain. When I was a PIC in my last company I did everything I could to teach, train, and mentor the Pilots I flew with because that is what the more senior PIC's did for me when I was new.

If you adopt all the good/smart/safe things you see your CA's or FO's doing you'll wind up a top notch aviator, and the young kid sitting next to you will hopefully learn them too.

That being said, it is up to the PIC's of this world not to pass on bad habits or blur the standards with questionable short-cuts.

Hey! I just got back from Lisbon (By the way - pretty cool approach over the city and some interesting crosswinds made the flights fun! :):cool:) and read all your new replys just now! Thanks for the interesting statements. They are all very convincing and I believe I understand better now.

Especially Clue32, you have been very convinving and I appreceate your effort! You sound like you've been doing some VERY interesting flying. May I ask what you flew and for whom? I would assume Uncle Sam...

de727ups, yeah, as far as I have been told visual approaches are forbidden at most German airports and at least VERY uncommon even at the smaller ones. And yes, I guess Lufthansa encourages their pilots to use automation a lot. I was just thinking about the differences to the USA.

Thanks again for your replys! Very interesting and I'd love to read and learn more. I'm looking forward to moving back home to the States for my career - your mentality and professionalism is just impressing!

Best regards
Jakob

EDIT: Sorry Clue32, I just looked at your profile. Obviously you did fly in Europe for the military! Would you mind to share any further stories? Your posts seemed awesome and got me interested! ;)

Jakob, short reply to avoid hijacking this thread, send me a PM if you have more specific questions.

Army aviator, flew VIP and General Support out of Stuttgart in C-12U (B200) and C-12J (B1900C). Mostly to Bosnia and Kosovo from Germany or Italy, but during my first three year tour I landed in 21 different countries as far east as Tiblisi Georgia, north as Oslo, South as Ali Al Salam Kuwait, and west as the Azores. I'm now flying an RC-12K out of Wiesbaden AAF and it is no where near as fun. Photos of all aircraft are on airliners.net if you are curious.

IFR in Europe is very easy once you get an ear for the different accents and become familiar with procedures at airfields you go in and out of regularly. In less busy sectors it is fairly easy to get "Direct to XYZ" for short cuts, but usually never further than the international border. Only serious problem I've had over here is Podgoriza Montenegro Radar not wanting to let us deviate around an area of thunderstorms and they flew us into the middle of a horseshoe shaped ring of thunderstorms. We worked it out, kept the plane out of the weather, and they eventually let us fly up the Adriatic Sea rather that heading back towards Sarajevo like our flight plan was filed for. Frankfurt is very busy and they want to cancel us army pilots out and put us visual to Wiesbaden as soon as possible. I went into FRA once with my CP's mic button sticking and hot micing on the arrival freq during the evening rush. Had an engine failure over the north sea and made an emergency landing into Koln. I recommend flying over the alps and dropping down to FL180 when it is clear outside, great view. And if Dutch Mil F-16's intercept you and ask to be cleared in close, they mean Blue Angel close.

Happy flying!

I may have missed it, but I think the poster was hinting at technical reasons, not regulatory ones (RVSM) you need autopilot near the tropopause.

The obvious one is WWII planes you speak of were straight wing, whereas modern jets are swept-wing, which are extremely vulnerable to dutch roll at high speed/high alt when flown by hand. Autopilot usually incorperates yaw damper, which eliminates or greatly reduces dutch roll with automatic rudder inputs.

I've only been able to find an appendix G of Part 91-RVSM on the FAA website, it does not speak of the use of an autopilot in RVSM airspace, only that it is required to have one and that it needs to be operational.

Could you please point me in the right direction?

Thank you!

I'm sorry about above post. I found the appendix 4.

The way I read and understand this is that is a guide for establishing operating procedures (among many, many, many other things) for Companies, operators, airlines to operate in RVSM airspace. They are not binding by them selves. Maybe for a part 91 operator!

However, if you work for an operator under 135 or 121 you are bound by what your training program and operation specifications says. Those are in them selves reviewed by your company's POI and approved.

My company can not dispatch an aircraft into RVSM airspace without an operational and functional autopilot. The use of an autopilot is recommended, but not required.

So if you fell like it you can climb, cruise and descend back through FL290 without the use of an autopilot.

Personally I like to use "George" every now and then to make sure it actually works and give my self and my co-pilot a break.:D

Going back to the original question real quick: Yes, today's RVSM airspace does mandate A/P use from 290-410. You don't have that restriction above FL410, but flying that high w no A/P is hard work for most airframes.

Back during DESERT STORM I flew a C-141 back from Germany w/no auto-pilot @ FL370. It was my CP's leg, and once we reached level-off, he could not maintain altitude and would get himself into a gradually increasing pitch oscillations +/- 500' by over-correcting. After a couple of more tries on his part, I had to take the jet. I got it trimmed out, but it took more work than it would have flying down at 10K.

My lesson learned: Yea, I was able to hand fly a heavy jet up high, but I should've asked for more fuel so I could go a bit lower to help make the jet a bit easier to handle.