Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Technical (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/technical/)
-   -   Part 121 IFR Takeoff Mins (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/technical/55528-part-121-ifr-takeoff-mins.html)

TherealOC 12-13-2010 04:11 PM

Part 121 IFR Takeoff Mins
 
I am preparing for an interview with a regional airline. I was a little confused about the takeoff minimums for part 121. I know standard is 1 mile for 1 or 2 engines and 1/2 mile for 3 or more.

When I look at Jepp approach plates it also has a column that says "adequate vis reference" which is typically 1/4 mile. (isn't adequate vis reference just if RVR is not reported? Cuz I know you are suppose to have the runway centerline lights, runway markings and runway edge lights if you are using those mins). Another column says STD for standard. So if the question comes up...what are my takeoff mins then...assuming i am looking at a jepp chart with these two numbers...is it 1/4 mile or 1 mile assuming im in a twin engine aircraft?

I know too that this probably depends on your specific airline's ops specs. But for a 121 domestic company quizzing me...what are they wanting to hear? Thanks!

Twin Wasp 12-13-2010 07:19 PM

This is probably overkill. At least read the bottom couple lines. Adequate Visual Ref will only get you down to 1600 RVR:

c. Lower Than Standard Takeoff Minima. When takeoff minima are equal to or less than the applicable standard takeoff minima, the certificate holder is authorized to use the lower than standard takeoff minima described in this operations specification.
d. TDZ RVR 1600 (500m) (beginning of takeoff roll) or visibility or Runway Visibility Value (RVV) statute mile, provided one of the following visual aids listed in d.(1) (4) is available:
(1) High intensity runway lights (HIRL).
(2) Operative runway centerline (CL) lights.
(3) Serviceable runway centerline marking (RCLM).
(4) In circumstances when none of the above visual aids are available, visibility or RVV statute mile may still be used, provided other runway markings or runway lighting provide pilots with adequate visual reference to continuously identify the takeoff surface and maintain directional control throughout the takeoff roll.
So if the HIRL, the CLs and the RCLM are all unusabled, but you think you can see enough to keep it on the runway, you're good to go down to 1600.

1) TDZ RVR 1200 (350m) (beginning of takeoff roll), mid-RVR 1200 (350m) (if installed) and
rollout RVR 1000 (300m), if authorized, may be used provided RVR equipment and one of the following visual aids combinations are available:
(a) Daylight Hours. Serviceable RCLM or HIRL or operative CL lights.
(b) Night Time Hours. HIRL or operative runway CL lights.

To get down to 12/12/10you're going to need something beyond just "adequate visual ref." And you're going to need lights at night.

(2) TDZ RVR 1000 (300m) (beginning of takeoff roll), mid-RVR 1000 (300m) (if installed) and
rollout RVR 1000 (300m), if authorized, may be used provided RVR equipment and one of the following visual aids combinations are available:
(a) Operative runway CL lights, OR
(b) HIRL and serviceable RCLM.

For 10/10/10 you need something to keep on the centerline.

(3) TDZ RVR 600 (175m) (beginning of takeoff roll), mid-RVR 600 (175m) (if installed), and rollout RVR 600 (175m), or TDZ RVR 500 (150m) (beginning of takeoff roll), mid-RVR 500 (150m) (if installed), and rollout RVR 500 (150m), if authorized, may be used provided RVR equipment and ALL of the following visual aids are available.
(a) HIRL.
(b) Operative runway CL lights.

For 5/5/5 you need lights both on the centerline and edge.

Get a Jepp chart for someplace like DFW and it will break it down beyond adequate visual ref. So if their Ops Specs allow it and it just says adequate visual ref, you're good down to a 1/4 mile or RVR 1600.

TherealOC 12-13-2010 07:30 PM

So let me make sure I have it all straight. So lets assume its a small airport we are talking about...and all they have listed is STD: 1 mile or 50 RVR and Adequate visual reference 1/4 mile or RVR 16. So in this situation my takeoff minimums would be 1 mile, unless company ops specs approved the lower than standard minimums of 1/4 mile or 16 RVR.

I guess I dont really understand why they post both for Jeppesen charts.

jonnyjetprop 12-14-2010 04:57 AM

Yes, no matter what, you can take off with 1sm vis. You need something to go lower and your carrier must be approved to use it.

Example: An early FAR 135 cargo carrier that I worked for didn't have the authorty to use lower than standard minimums. The company tried to force us to depart because it was posted on the jepp plate.

Example two: Working for another FAR 135 carrier as an IP, we had several aircraft along with a MD-88 preparing to take off on a foggy morning in KOAK. The problem was that the runway lighting that allowed the reducded TO minimums was inop. I asked the tower if they thought it would be fixed because I needed them to TO. Needless to say, everyone waited for the wx to improve. This is why you have the laudry list of TO minimums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TherealOC (Post 915896)
So let me make sure I have it all straight. So lets assume its a small airport we are talking about...and all they have listed is STD: 1 mile or 50 RVR and Adequate visual reference 1/4 mile or RVR 16. So in this situation my takeoff minimums would be 1 mile, unless company ops specs approved the lower than standard minimums of 1/4 mile or 16 RVR.

I guess I dont really understand why they post both for Jeppesen charts.


Twin Wasp 12-14-2010 08:54 AM

They print both for the people who do not have lower than standard TO minimums. Jepp will make a "custom coverage" for you with just the airports and approaches you want. It costs $$$$ but I was down to carrying two Jepp books for the US at the prior job. Most small operators carry the regular or HP sets (just airports with runways >6000 feet, cuts out two books.) It's up to the pilots in those cases to know what applies. You pick the highest of the Ops Specs, what you have been trained to or what the runway allows.

jumpseat2024 12-15-2010 06:39 PM

I tried to decipher the earlier post with the regs, but couldn't quite wrap my head around it. I'm just going to post an excerpt from a gouge (probably not a huge secret with one it's from) with the scenarios--Lay-man explainations are greatly appreaciated :D

What if RVR is reported as 6-6-6, can we depart?
What if it drops to 5-6-6?
What if an RVR value isn't reported put the others are 6 and 6, can we depart?
If visibility is 1 mile and RVR is 1200 can we depart?

dojetdriver 12-15-2010 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpseat2024 (Post 916873)
I tried to decipher the earlier post with the regs, but couldn't quite wrap my head around it. I'm just going to post an excerpt from a gouge (probably not a huge secret with one it's from) with the scenarios--Lay-man explainations are greatly appreaciated :D

What if RVR is reported as 6-6-6, can we depart?

YES, as long as your OP SPECS are approved to reduce the minimums from the standard and the chart has 6-6-6 published.
Some airports, as well as the airlines that operate out of them can do a 3-3-3.

You're gonna need Operative HIRLs and CL's as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpseat2024 (Post 916873)
What if it drops to 5-6-6?

See above, if you are 5-5-5 approved, sure. If only approved for 6-6-6, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpseat2024 (Post 916873)
What if an RVR value isn't reported put the others are 6 and 6, can we depart?

The three different FOM's I've worked under, yes. But it's not that it's "not reported" per se, more along the lines of inoperative. But yeah, same thing.

Quote:

A runway mid RVR report may be substituted for either Touchdown zone RVR or Rollout RVR if one is inoperative, provided two other controlling RVR values are available. However, if all three reports are available, all three reports must be at or above the minimums for for the reduced visibility takeoff operation being conducted
However, look at the back of the PNS airport diagram and take off mins for 17/35. There's only 2 RVRs installed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpseat2024 (Post 916873)
If visibility is 1 mile and RVR is 1200 can we depart?

This is operator specific, but most companies comply with the same Op SPEC, most times. C55 is another example, but here is what mine says.

Quote:

RVR reports, when available for a particular runway, shall be used for all takeoff operations on that runway
Feel like you're ready for your CA's oral yet? :D

tomgoodman 12-15-2010 09:04 PM

Delta's "Mother" Malone
 
Our long-time OpSpecs instructor, the legendary Pat Malone, enjoyed showing us "loopholes" and "gotchas" in the minimums. For example, the RVRs might be too low for Rwy 9, but legal if you use 27; or if the prevailing visibility is OK, taxi to a runway that doesn't have an RVR.
She'd always warn: "This is merely what's legal, not necessarily what's safe." ;)

snippercr 12-23-2010 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomgoodman (Post 916917)
Our long-time OpSpecs instructor, the legendary Pat Malone, enjoyed showing us "loopholes" and "gotchas" in the minimums. For example, the RVRs might be too low for Rwy 9, but legal if you use 27; or if the prevailing visibility is OK, taxi to a runway that doesn't have an RVR.
She'd always warn: "This is merely what's legal, not necessarily what's safe." ;)

I heard that happen at our airport once. It was really foggy, but the winds were calm (probably contributing to the fog). We had RVR for one runway but none of the others. We were listening to the pilot of the regional jet they were going to take off the one runway but the RVR was too low. Yet the "reported visibility" was okay so they just taxied to the other runway and took off since the winds were calm.

Loop hole indeed!

IluvRNP 12-24-2010 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomgoodman (Post 916917)
Our long-time OpSpecs instructor, the legendary Pat Malone, enjoyed showing us "loopholes" and "gotchas" in the minimums. For example, the RVRs might be too low for Rwy 9, but legal if you use 27; or if the prevailing visibility is OK, taxi to a runway that doesn't have an RVR.
She'd always warn: "This is merely what's legal, not necessarily what's safe." ;)


She was as sharp as they come. Did you know she was a Link Trainer Operator during the big war?


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:37 PM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright 2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands