Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-13-2010, 04:11 PM   #1  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Dash 8-FO
Posts: 25
Default Part 121 IFR Takeoff Mins

I am preparing for an interview with a regional airline. I was a little confused about the takeoff minimums for part 121. I know standard is 1 mile for 1 or 2 engines and 1/2 mile for 3 or more.

When I look at Jepp approach plates it also has a column that says "adequate vis reference" which is typically 1/4 mile. (isn't adequate vis reference just if RVR is not reported? Cuz I know you are suppose to have the runway centerline lights, runway markings and runway edge lights if you are using those mins). Another column says STD for standard. So if the question comes up...what are my takeoff mins then...assuming i am looking at a jepp chart with these two numbers...is it 1/4 mile or 1 mile assuming im in a twin engine aircraft?

I know too that this probably depends on your specific airline's ops specs. But for a 121 domestic company quizzing me...what are they wanting to hear? Thanks!
TherealOC is offline  
Old 12-13-2010, 07:19 PM   #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Twin Wasp's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Asst. button pusher
Posts: 2,449
Default

This is probably overkill. At least read the bottom couple lines. Adequate Visual Ref will only get you down to 1600 RVR:

c. Lower Than Standard Takeoff Minima. When takeoff minima are equal to or less than the applicable standard takeoff minima, the certificate holder is authorized to use the lower than standard takeoff minima described in this operations specification.
d. TDZ RVR 1600 (500m) (beginning of takeoff roll) or visibility or Runway Visibility Value (RVV) statute mile, provided one of the following visual aids listed in d.(1) (4) is available:
(1) High intensity runway lights (HIRL).
(2) Operative runway centerline (CL) lights.
(3) Serviceable runway centerline marking (RCLM).
(4) In circumstances when none of the above visual aids are available, visibility or RVV statute mile may still be used, provided other runway markings or runway lighting provide pilots with adequate visual reference to continuously identify the takeoff surface and maintain directional control throughout the takeoff roll.
So if the HIRL, the CLs and the RCLM are all unusabled, but you think you can see enough to keep it on the runway, you're good to go down to 1600.

1) TDZ RVR 1200 (350m) (beginning of takeoff roll), mid-RVR 1200 (350m) (if installed) and
rollout RVR 1000 (300m), if authorized, may be used provided RVR equipment and one of the following visual aids combinations are available:
(a) Daylight Hours. Serviceable RCLM or HIRL or operative CL lights.
(b) Night Time Hours. HIRL or operative runway CL lights.

To get down to 12/12/10you're going to need something beyond just "adequate visual ref." And you're going to need lights at night.

(2) TDZ RVR 1000 (300m) (beginning of takeoff roll), mid-RVR 1000 (300m) (if installed) and
rollout RVR 1000 (300m), if authorized, may be used provided RVR equipment and one of the following visual aids combinations are available:
(a) Operative runway CL lights, OR
(b) HIRL and serviceable RCLM.

For 10/10/10 you need something to keep on the centerline.

(3) TDZ RVR 600 (175m) (beginning of takeoff roll), mid-RVR 600 (175m) (if installed), and rollout RVR 600 (175m), or TDZ RVR 500 (150m) (beginning of takeoff roll), mid-RVR 500 (150m) (if installed), and rollout RVR 500 (150m), if authorized, may be used provided RVR equipment and ALL of the following visual aids are available.
(a) HIRL.
(b) Operative runway CL lights.

For 5/5/5 you need lights both on the centerline and edge.

Get a Jepp chart for someplace like DFW and it will break it down beyond adequate visual ref. So if their Ops Specs allow it and it just says adequate visual ref, you're good down to a 1/4 mile or RVR 1600.
Twin Wasp is offline  
Old 12-13-2010, 07:30 PM   #3  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Dash 8-FO
Posts: 25
Default

So let me make sure I have it all straight. So lets assume its a small airport we are talking about...and all they have listed is STD: 1 mile or 50 RVR and Adequate visual reference 1/4 mile or RVR 16. So in this situation my takeoff minimums would be 1 mile, unless company ops specs approved the lower than standard minimums of 1/4 mile or 16 RVR.

I guess I dont really understand why they post both for Jeppesen charts.
TherealOC is offline  
Old 12-14-2010, 04:57 AM   #4  
Gets Weekends Off
 
jonnyjetprop's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,340
Default

Yes, no matter what, you can take off with 1sm vis. You need something to go lower and your carrier must be approved to use it.

Example: An early FAR 135 cargo carrier that I worked for didn't have the authorty to use lower than standard minimums. The company tried to force us to depart because it was posted on the jepp plate.

Example two: Working for another FAR 135 carrier as an IP, we had several aircraft along with a MD-88 preparing to take off on a foggy morning in KOAK. The problem was that the runway lighting that allowed the reducded TO minimums was inop. I asked the tower if they thought it would be fixed because I needed them to TO. Needless to say, everyone waited for the wx to improve. This is why you have the laudry list of TO minimums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TherealOC View Post
So let me make sure I have it all straight. So lets assume its a small airport we are talking about...and all they have listed is STD: 1 mile or 50 RVR and Adequate visual reference 1/4 mile or RVR 16. So in this situation my takeoff minimums would be 1 mile, unless company ops specs approved the lower than standard minimums of 1/4 mile or 16 RVR.

I guess I dont really understand why they post both for Jeppesen charts.
jonnyjetprop is offline  
Old 12-14-2010, 08:54 AM   #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Twin Wasp's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Asst. button pusher
Posts: 2,449
Default

They print both for the people who do not have lower than standard TO minimums. Jepp will make a "custom coverage" for you with just the airports and approaches you want. It costs $$$$ but I was down to carrying two Jepp books for the US at the prior job. Most small operators carry the regular or HP sets (just airports with runways >6000 feet, cuts out two books.) It's up to the pilots in those cases to know what applies. You pick the highest of the Ops Specs, what you have been trained to or what the runway allows.
Twin Wasp is offline  
Old 12-15-2010, 06:39 PM   #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
jumpseat2024's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: CRJ700 F/O
Posts: 353
Default

I tried to decipher the earlier post with the regs, but couldn't quite wrap my head around it. I'm just going to post an excerpt from a gouge (probably not a huge secret with one it's from) with the scenarios--Lay-man explainations are greatly appreaciated

What if RVR is reported as 6-6-6, can we depart?
What if it drops to 5-6-6?
What if an RVR value isn't reported put the others are 6 and 6, can we depart?
If visibility is 1 mile and RVR is 1200 can we depart?
jumpseat2024 is offline  
Old 12-15-2010, 08:25 PM   #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,707
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumpseat2024 View Post
I tried to decipher the earlier post with the regs, but couldn't quite wrap my head around it. I'm just going to post an excerpt from a gouge (probably not a huge secret with one it's from) with the scenarios--Lay-man explainations are greatly appreaciated

What if RVR is reported as 6-6-6, can we depart?
YES, as long as your OP SPECS are approved to reduce the minimums from the standard and the chart has 6-6-6 published.
Some airports, as well as the airlines that operate out of them can do a 3-3-3.

You're gonna need Operative HIRLs and CL's as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumpseat2024 View Post
What if it drops to 5-6-6?
See above, if you are 5-5-5 approved, sure. If only approved for 6-6-6, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumpseat2024 View Post
What if an RVR value isn't reported put the others are 6 and 6, can we depart?
The three different FOM's I've worked under, yes. But it's not that it's "not reported" per se, more along the lines of inoperative. But yeah, same thing.

Quote:
A runway mid RVR report may be substituted for either Touchdown zone RVR or Rollout RVR if one is inoperative, provided two other controlling RVR values are available. However, if all three reports are available, all three reports must be at or above the minimums for for the reduced visibility takeoff operation being conducted
However, look at the back of the PNS airport diagram and take off mins for 17/35. There's only 2 RVRs installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumpseat2024 View Post
If visibility is 1 mile and RVR is 1200 can we depart?
This is operator specific, but most companies comply with the same Op SPEC, most times. C55 is another example, but here is what mine says.

Quote:
RVR reports, when available for a particular runway, shall be used for all takeoff operations on that runway
Feel like you're ready for your CA's oral yet?

Last edited by dojetdriver; 12-16-2010 at 08:08 AM.
dojetdriver is offline  
Old 12-15-2010, 09:04 PM   #8  
Moderator
 
tomgoodman's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 5,578
Thumbs up Delta's "Mother" Malone

Our long-time OpSpecs instructor, the legendary Pat Malone, enjoyed showing us "loopholes" and "gotchas" in the minimums. For example, the RVRs might be too low for Rwy 9, but legal if you use 27; or if the prevailing visibility is OK, taxi to a runway that doesn't have an RVR.
She'd always warn: "This is merely what's legal, not necessarily what's safe."
tomgoodman is offline  
Old 12-23-2010, 03:01 PM   #9  
Does NOT get weekends off
 
snippercr's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: ERJ - 145
Posts: 1,628
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomgoodman View Post
Our long-time OpSpecs instructor, the legendary Pat Malone, enjoyed showing us "loopholes" and "gotchas" in the minimums. For example, the RVRs might be too low for Rwy 9, but legal if you use 27; or if the prevailing visibility is OK, taxi to a runway that doesn't have an RVR.
She'd always warn: "This is merely what's legal, not necessarily what's safe."
I heard that happen at our airport once. It was really foggy, but the winds were calm (probably contributing to the fog). We had RVR for one runway but none of the others. We were listening to the pilot of the regional jet they were going to take off the one runway but the RVR was too low. Yet the "reported visibility" was okay so they just taxied to the other runway and took off since the winds were calm.

Loop hole indeed!
snippercr is offline  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:23 AM   #10  
Line Holder
 
IluvRNP's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: None
Posts: 67
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomgoodman View Post
Our long-time OpSpecs instructor, the legendary Pat Malone, enjoyed showing us "loopholes" and "gotchas" in the minimums. For example, the RVRs might be too low for Rwy 9, but legal if you use 27; or if the prevailing visibility is OK, taxi to a runway that doesn't have an RVR.
She'd always warn: "This is merely what's legal, not necessarily what's safe."

She was as sharp as they come. Did you know she was a Link Trainer Operator during the big war?
IluvRNP is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New United to use CAL's 121 certificate av8rrob United 13 09-02-2010 06:18 PM
ANPRM: New 121 Pilot Certification Rqmts. BoilerUP Regional 102 02-26-2010 02:31 PM
135 Jet S/E Climb Perf. in Black & White airwolfe1 Part 135 3 11-28-2006 03:38 PM
Part 91 IFR takeoff celloman Flight Schools and Training 5 04-06-2006 07:07 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:56 PM.