Log flights which taxiied back?
 

I thought about putting this in the flight training forum but this subject might get more response here.

Do you log flight time for flights which taxiied back for fuel, maintenance, or cancellation? You were 'moving the plane for the purpose of flight' but you never took off. What is the FAA's stance on this? My airline crew scheduling logs this time as "FAR Block" but I thought I've read somewhere that the FAA doesn't consider time like this loggable unless you actually fly. Thanks.

If you still fly the flight that day, I'd log it.

If you taxi it back, and go to a hotel, I would not.

I really don't care what the FAA says. It's my logbook not their's.

I log it like this: "If I taxi with the intention of flight, then it's "flight" time and loggable." If I don't then, I don't log it.

Cancellation after taxi: log it.
Reposition on the ground: don't log it.

That's how I do it. :)

Well I only log time in which I actually left the ground due to the definition in:

14 CFR 1.1

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing

That's what I said. :rolleyes:

We are almost saying the same thing, but there is a difference

14 CFR 1.1

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing

But most people seem to miss the after landing part of the definition. Which would require you to leave the ground first.

Based on the FAA definition I would say that both of the cases above aren't technically loggable.

I think this all depends on what type of flying you are doing.
Like you - in the military it is takeoff to landing + 5 mins.
Naval aviation even had a definition for "purpose of flight" depending on certain circumstances (having crossed the hold short or in tension on the cat for example) for safety investigation reporting purposes; it didn't have anything to do with logging time, but you would think they would be the same huh?
All that time spent in marshal doesn't count for squat :)
Isn't civilian time (and least in GA) logged based on the Hobbs times?
Do airline actually log block to block or only paid block to block?

I have heard many civilians use the first part of Otto's explanation as basis of logging time.
Interesting question and one that I am sure has been addressed on the forum before. You might want to try a quick search of the archives.

USMCFLYR

Why would you log taxi time? That's retarded. Not sure how airlines track maint flight hours, but if it's like the military, by logging taxi time you're adding additional hours to the airframe that weren't actually flown, thus pushing it into phases earlier, inspections before needed, and thus costing money. Plus you're now a pencil whipper. I've never logged anything that didn't involve getting air under the tires. If I could have every maint cancel I could probably add another 100 hours... but it wasn't "FLIGHT" time.

I am assuming all 121 carriers report times the same. We report OUT/OFF and ON/IN times.

OUT = Out of the Block (gate)
OFF = Takeoff (wheels off the ground)

ON = Landing (wheels on the ground)
IN = In to the Block (gate)

We log our pilot time based on OUT to IN (Gate to Gate). However, the company maintenance is based on OFF to ON (Takeoff to Landing).

I never logged that either for the exact reasons that you mention. If I remember though back in my civvie days - if I paid for an hour of Hobbs time then I logged an hour. Of course I doubt any of my time on the ground was ever more than a .1 or .2 MAX!

So for those LLLLOOONNNGGG delays where you are sitting on the taxiway waiting for takeoff for an hour or more - that time is being logged but it isn't counting against engine maintenance times or moving the aircraft closer to inspections based on engine/airframe hours?

USMCFLYR

Sounds like it counts for getting paid, but not against the airframe?

Thanks for the responses fellas. My airline tracks the actual flight time of the aircraft for those maintenance reasons.

Military flight logging rules are better defined more black and white than civilian.

I think the reason pilots justify logging time even if no flight occured are multiple.

(1) you did operate the plane under its own power, intending to fly, until you cancelled or taxiied back. Under this assumption one could log that time up till the point of cancellation - the 'after landing' provision in the definition wouldn't apply - the definition assumes that flight occurs. That's the justification used, don't attack me for re-interpreting the definition.

(2) The PIC and FO still act as required crewmembers, managing the operation, checking the weather and status of the flight and fuel, or working the mechanical problem, and providing service to passengers. You're still working much as you would in flight, just not flying.

(3) You're getting paid (most are) just as you would in flight.

I'll check and see what I did in the past, and be consistent. Thanks again!

The reason we log it is because it counts against FAR flight time limits, (ie, 30 in seven). Seems if counts for that, you should be able to log it.

Agreed.

If you taxi out for the purpose of flight, and then taxi back to the gate after 1:15 and cancel that flight, the crew desk cannot then reassign you to a 7 hour flight.

Joe

Correct...

With the three different contracts I'e worked under, if I logged what I got paid for vs. what I've flown, I'd have way more time in the book. A CDO is a perfect example. 6-7 hour of pay for usually less then 2 hours of flying. I've had years where I credited 1200-1300 hours but only flew 700-800. Also, with a lot of flying now chronically over blocked, I could have way more time in the book if I logged what I got paid for vs. what I flew.

It may be "retarded" to you, but something you're going to have to come to terms with if/when you transition to airline life is you're NOT in the military anymore. Things are different, that's just the way it is. I mean, after all, why should the airlines give a sortie conversion/credit? That's just "retarded". That's called sarcasm.

But to expand on your point; So when I've been taxiing out in ORD, LGA, EWR, ATL and the departure gates are opening and closing, active runways are opening and closing, and were constantly having to taxi to various parts of the airport, all the while monitoring fuel as well as being in communication with dispatch to ensure the alternate(s) we were given 2-3 hours prior are still valid all while evaluating our fuel situation SHOULN'T be logged? When the weather is crappy, the lineup is long, we're having to get deiced and be conscious of HOT's and make decisions, that shouldn't be logged? Like I said, mil world is different than the civ world, adapt.

God forbid there's a runway/taxiway incursion. Or worse, in ORD if you get hit by a ground ops vehicle you're going straight to the drug tester. ANYTIME I signed the paperwork to take the plane flying, it's going in my logbook from the time the ACARS stamped an out time till it stamped an in time. Doesn't matter if it recorded an OFF/ON time or not.

Feel free to disagree. It's never come up in an interview.

Depends, is the particular part of the engine/airframe may have a cycle interval vs. an hour interval.

You are logging flight time to prove you have experience.

Experience, as in: you have seen complex situations and made the correct choices. You have operated the aircraft safely and not violated clearances, regulations, etc. Taxi time counts as experience, so why shouldn't it be logged?

Cruising along at FL360 with the autopilot on is a place where you could take a quick nap if you were so inclined. With TCAS and ATC radar, the chances of bending metal are miniscule.

Taxiing around Laguardia or O'Hare is not a place where you could take a quick nap. It is a high-threat environment. It's not the flight into JFK that requires experience, it's the taxi in and out. Every trip into a busy airport is a different learning experience, and how do pilots keep track of learning experiences? By logging it.

If taxi time doesn't count as experience worth recording, maybe we need to find a new "deadliest aviation accident in history" since the old one involved aircraft on the ground.

I log everything at work since we have duty time limits and what not. If the Hobbs is moving for us to fly, it's being logged. If we start up and taxi out to do a run post maintenace or something, I don't log that. I had no intention of flying. If we decided to go fly, then sure.

On the private side, if I logged every time my plane's Hobbs ticked over .1 going to/from the fuel pumps, hangar, etc. I'd probably be mad with adding up my logbook by now.

I have a little grease board that I use for flight instructing, with Hobbs Start/Engine Start Time, takeoff/hobbs time and landing/hobbs time and hobbs stop/engine shut down. On average no more than .2 extra moving on the ground both to and from the runway. So I usually log it anyways.

How much time are you actually going to be able to log? .1? .2? Really, you are that worried about flight time that you'd log that? Did you log any landings with it? I mean, you never actually landed. Is there saftey pilot time logged as well?


If I saw this in your log book and I was interviewing you, I'd sure have some questions to ask. "It's my logbook, I'll do what I want with it!" Well go ahead, but that could get you into some hot water having to "explain what the time logged here is." Remember, it's a legal record, that can get you in trouble if you mess it up.