As others have stated, often times it can be mitigated by the crew during the enroute portion. However, it's not always that easy nor cut and dried. Often times our max allowable take off weight is due to landing structural weight. The routes we area cleared via include the FULL STAR. And often times, it's not uncommon in ORD to fly the ENTIRE approach from the outermost fix. Based on that, it may seem that when we take off and we'll be below landing structural weight. And after all, what happens if we lose comm? We're expected to fly the filed/cleared/last assigned, as well as initiate the approach at a prescribed time per FARs. Not a likely scenario, but it's STILL a point to consider.

One thing that can throw a wrench in the system is if the weather is down and there's gas on board for an alternate as well as contingency and extra, and the wx is holding steady or on the decline. Would it be a good idea to fly lower and burn more gas during the enroute portion when we'd really like to have the alt gas as well as contingency/extra on board just in case things don't go according to plan when we get there? There have been times where the alternate is the one EVERYBODY else is using, and asking to go there just puts in the a long line behind the other guys going there. Again, not that common, but it does have to be factored into our decision process.

Another thing as far as ORD is concerned is related to the above as far as the cleared route goes. About 2/3 through the flight we get the "cleared direct HALIE/ESSPO direct O'hare" that takes us off the original long STAR track that includes the lengthy downwind and going all the way out for the approach. All of the sudden, we can now be faced with landing a few hundred pounds under to landing a few hundred pounds over very quickly. Being assigned 300/310, whatever all the way to the last fix before being handed off to approach doesn't really help as those speed are above gear and flap limits. If we are allowed to slow, we're usually descending so there's an issue of burn rate. At this point, coming down early and putting out gear and flap will usually do the trick if we can slow early enough. But it can loop back around what's going on with ORD and do we want/need the gas for later, etc.

As far as spoilers go, the plane I'm on doesn't allow for them to be out when the TL's are above a certain angle thats barely above flight idle. In other words, they're not one of the things that can be put out to burn more gas. What can work the best is being allowed to do 250 below 10K with our gear and first flap setting out. But this doesn't always work in the terminal area as we're often slowed to 180, etc. If we do need to burn the gas, being cleared back to max allowable below 10k can do it fast.

I've only had it happen a few times where it wasn't till late in the flight that we were going to be heavy, and each time the ORD TRACON guy handled it like a champ. Didn't flinch, didn't waiver, simply spun us or gave us enough vectors to take care of the problem. But them again, ORD has arguably some of the best controllers ANYWHERE.

IAH TRACON? Well, those guys can be a different story.

 

The most straightforward way to handle this is to ask the pilot what he needs.

Spoilers and high power works for some aircraft, but the pilot won't need your help for this. As has been mentioned earlier, some aircraft have an auto-retract feature that retracts the spoilers when you push the power up. Flaps and gear out early also works, but some aircraft have very slow max speeds for flaps and gear.

Perhaps you can have him extend downwind and put the next guy in front of him.

I really hope that pilots are not waiting until they are on final to tell you that they have a problem.

Joe

 

The problem actually lies with Chicago. You guys are too good at your jobs. Try emulating Charlotte and putting people on 37 mile finals at 150 knots. That should fix it.

 

hey OP why do u guys (controllers) sound alike.

 

Yea that will do it. And flying 150 miles below 11,000 before turning base.

I hated CLT. Terrible controllers. At least I only flew in/out of there only 16 times a week.

 

I could ask the same question to you! Almost all male airline pilots sound alike on the radio (to me, anyway).

I appreciate the responses and will keep everyone's suggestions in mind. Depending on the configuration it might be a piece of cake to just extend a downwind and put the guy behind you first, but sometimes it's a little more complicated (like if you're coming straight-in to the runway and there are already a bunch of other airplanes on the downwind, etc.).

I can't speak to CLT or anywhere else except the couple of other small air traffic facilities I worked before I came to Chicago, but the training standards here are very high -- to the point that less than half of the controllers that walk in the door become fully certified.

 

From a part 121 perspective you can't takeoff knowing you'll arrive at your destination overweight:

Sec. 121.195: No person operating a turbine engine powered airplane may take off that airplane at such a weight that (allowing for normal consumption of fuel and oil in flight to the destination or alternate airport) the weight of the airplane on arrival would exceed the landing weight set forth in the Airplane Flight Manual for the elevation of the destination or alternate airport and the ambient temperature anticipated at the time of landing.

This scenario happened at one of my now defunct airlines. The aircraft was over fueled for a destination to South Ameriica and couldn't be de-fueled. The crew was planning to depart and request holding at the destination until they burned off the right amount. The Chief Pilot got involved and had dispatch file a convoluted route that added time to burn off the extra gas.

 

it doesnt always happens like that. Perhaps you received many directs or simply lots of tailwinds. Anyhow, jeppesen flight plans are quite accurate I would say. The time that you can arrive with more fuel is when the captain decides to add more due to weather.
Anyway, if you end up arriving with more than calculated you can dirty up the plane with plenty of time or even get the landing gear down.
But it doesnt happen very often, honestly.

The only time you can have too much fuel is when you have a fire.