Ziggy

So many things have happened to put this profession in it's downward spiral. And there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. But since the unions are not pretty much not allowed to strike, slow down, or sick out. We've pretty much had our legs chopped off at the knees.

Rhino Driver

Ah, but that is the problem. It should have never gotten that high. What about the guy who crosses the line during a strike and takes that job for LESS because of tough economic times??? And no, I'm not implying anything.

We're not going to solve this problem here, but a national seniority list is by no means the answer.

When I was commissioned in the USN (1997), I was flying airplanes for 24k per year. Not much either, I remember, as I too had gone through civilian flight training and paid my way through college, but I always wanted to fly for the airlines and the military was going to be my 12 year stepping stone. Where's my national seniority number come in???

I also work for an airline, like you. I would by no means ever wish anyone harm in their profession. BUT, I do want my airline to be the best. I want my airline to make more money than yours. I want my airlines stock to do better than yours. It's just business. If I lose my job because my management stinks, should I be able to come to your house and still reap the benefits earned at my former employer over you?

And what about the fact that "the airlines" really isn't just "the airlines" anymore. There are many levels as you know. I don't really think that your union and mine should be the same entity. How can a union fight for more pay, bigger airplanes, better working conditions, etc, for you, without negatively impacting me.

As I said before, I think the real problem lies with the fact that it's ON THE VERGE of being too good to leave a regional in this day and age. Should have never gotten this good at that level. Now you want to make it better!

Rhino Driver

How about asking the 6 figure salaried CA's to take a pay cut to help offset the 20K per year FO. Now that's an issue that should be handled in-house! Don't bring down mine to bring up yours. Starting to sound like "JOE THE PLUMBER!"

Ziggy

RHINO I don't see how making pay, benefits, and QOL better at the regionals inhibits your chances to the legacies. If pilots who have attained these things at the regionals wish to stay, That's one less pilot to compete with.
Unfortunately you can't put the ****** back in the horse. You can only look ahead with the lessons you've learned from the past.

Rhino Driver

BECAUSE...If you keep making life at the regionals better, what is YOUR incentive to move on??? If the regionals keep getting better contracts with better pay, benefits, bigger airplanes, you get the picture, IT BRINGS DOWN THE PROFESSION AS A WHOLE. You're willingness to fly an RJ900, as an example, from JFK to TPA, as a regional guy for regional pay, brings down the industry a couple of notches. A flight of that length and from a market such as that should only be flown by a mainline aircraft and crew.

Eventually, you become ANOTHER major carrier because WE'VE allowed you to do it for less. There's already too much capacity out there and we don't need to keep increasing it further.

It's already coming to fruition. Look at the drawdown of the regionals with the 50 seaters going away. Now we must draw the line and not allow scope to get away again. It's time we man-up and start taking it back to the mainlines!

Again, the regionals should be viewed BY ALL as a stepping stone, not a career position that one strives to attain!

Tinpusher007

I do see where you are coming from. But you have to remember that everyone's situation is different. Im 29 single and looking at an upgrade at the beginning of the year. I have 35 more years of 121 flying available to me. Take a guy who is older than me but has a wife and 2 kids to feed. He may enjoy the stability of a good sked and money more than risking being at the bottom of a major's list and taking a pay cut.

Plus, by your logic, if things become "too good" at the regionals that would mean less would leave and go to the majors...even when they are hirirng. That doesn't preclude guys with less seniority from moving on. Believe me, when those floodgates open again, people will RUN, not walk to the majors. Comfort at the regionals for the senior guys is not whats keeping the major from hiring. Guys are not going to quit the regionals to force them into a staffing problem so that the majors will say "the hell with RJ's, we need more mainline lift". I understand your theory but I think you know it just doesn't work that way. And its a flawed argument in blaming regional pilots for this.

Lastly, the company decides what kind of plane gets flown where. If they can't make money on a 737 and feel they need a CRJ-900 thats not the fault of the pilot(s) flying it. Its simply what the market demands. If the 900 wasn't available, they might pull out of the market altogether. With the economy the way it is and the cost of fuel as volatile as it is, I don't think its a forgone conclusion that if 90% of RJ's were suddenly gone tomorrow that there would be an automatic influx of 737's and A319's replacing all of that lift.

Rhino Driver

You too make some good points Tin, but the bottom line is that an airplane like the 900 should be a Mainline aircraft. The pilots at the majors let that slip away a few years back. Can we get it back? Don't know and probably not.

The point about the guy being comfortable with his schedule and pay at the regional level is exactly my point. It's TOO GOOD. We entice too many people into this profession by making it a descent paying job at the lower levels. If the only reward was at the top, more people wouldn't just jump into aviation, and many have. The reward should be harder to attain. The initial sacrifice should be greater, and the ultimate reward should be just that...THE ULTIMATE job at a major airline. Used to be that way, anyway.

I respect your point of view Tin. Good luck moving up in the regionals to get that PIC time. In time, you will get where it sounds to me like you desire to be someday. Stay within your means and keep climbing the ladder.

Tinpusher007

Thanks for the well-wishing. And I respect your opinion and good points as well. Best of luck to you in your career as well!

utedrummer

No pilot job seat is TOO GOOD! We ALL worked HARD for where we are and ALL PAY is too low and ALL schedules arnt good enough. The regionals arnt too good, the MAINLINES JUST ARNT BETTER AND THEY SHOULD BE!!!! I have been a first year FO twice in three years (now furloughed again and looking for my 3rd first year FO seat if I'm lucky to find one hiring), a CFI for 4 years before that. It cost me over $100K for my ratings etc, as much if not more then a doctor. In the 7 years I have been A PROFESSIONAL PILOT utilizing MY COMMERCIAL PREVELIEGES I have filed taxes for less then $15K each year and you are telling me after seven years of ****** the regionals treat me too good?? Its pilots like you that look to knock down other pilot who are BENEATH YOU that are the problem. Raise the bottom and top goes up too. If the RJ CA is making $150K then you have good reason to ask for more.

And Yes. A National List would solve the problems. One Pilot Ran Union that the pilots work for. The airlines come to the union to find pilots and since the union has them the airline has to play by the unions rules instead of the other way around like it is now. Company X tells the union whats its required mins are, offers bases and the pilots that meet the mins bid for the bases. Still have to "interview" with the company so the company doesnt get stuck with a sub-par pilot. Union charges company, union pays pilot. Every pilot getting equal and better pay based on aircraft and union seniority (seniorty based on something as simply as the day you received you Comm. lisence and became eligible for pay). Only reason to change company is for a better life-fitting base. If company X managment sucks and goes BK pilots dont lose seniority and bid for the next open base spot.

Just my thoughts. There IS a better way and fear keeps all you big shots from it.

Rhino Driver

That's exactly what I'm saying UTE. By the way, you shouldn't be flying for an airline after 4 years of flight instructing. What do you think you should be making? You're entire argument is completely WRONG! I surely hope you don't think the idea of "spreading the wealth around" is a good deal as well.

I feel for the young regional FO's out there, and the pay probably could be better for them. But, you are paying your dues, just as a doctor does through residency after medical school. He makes nothing too.

And you're wrong. Better pay at the bottom is a big part of the problem with not as much pay at the top. No incentive to leave once you make that BIG 60K CA job. Just as bigger airplanes going to the regionals is as much, if not worse of a problem.