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USAPA"S implosion begins.
This is for you folks that enjoy watching the new union the usair east pilots formed to avoid a binding arbitration.
Besides the police being called to usapa's "world" headquarters for an assault (the VP of the union physically attacked the secretary treasure) and a police report filed. you can read about the goings on of the only union in the country designed to screw it's members. What does it take to move an office? At this point we think it takes a miracle. Many of you have probably seen the e-mails and updates making wild accusations and charges. A little background and history of the issue is in order: The newly created US Airline Pilots Association was in need of office space in April 2008, as it had just become the bargaining agent for US Airways pilots. The original founders signed a three-year lease for about 3500 square feet of office space. That lease will expire at the end of April 2011. At a BPR meeting this past summer, the Executive Vice President brought to the BPR's attention this fact and had some suggestions. With the economy as it is, commercial real estate has dropped significantly in price and better deals are available. The EVP contacted a commercial real estate broker and made an agreement that he would help the association find about 8500 square feet. In this type of arrangement, it is the lessor who will pay the bill for the broker. However, the President of the association had a major problem with the EVP signing this contract with the broker. The President then called for a BPR conference call to "discuss" this outrage. After what we believed would have to be the worst union meetings that we ever have attended (or will ever attend), it was decided that the EVP would go back to the broker, add a clause that USAPA could get out of the contract if the BPR did not agree, and then provide the contract to President Cleary for him to affix his signature. The BPR voted to approve the broker contract, provided that the escape clause would be added. Fast forward several months. The broker found eleven different properties that would meet the union's needs, and he set up "walk throughs" for these properties. That field of properties was then narrowed to five. The officers and a BPR member then took tours of these five remaining properties. At the January BPR meeting, the EVP presented this information to the board with a recommendation of three properties. Needless to say there was disagreement between the EVP and the President, and a little more drama was involved, but the field was then narrowed to just two properties. One place known as "Lake Point" and another property called "Woodlawn." Either property could be had with a choice of either a 5 year, or 7 year lease. The lease at the present location expires at the end of April, and an extension to the lease had been discussed, but the cost would double on a month-to-month basis. Your PHX representatives thought this would be irresponsible, since the board and the EVP have been working on this project since July. We were in possession of the facts and required information, we just needed to get to a vote. There is a substantial lead time required with office buildings due to the need to "build out" the internal space to meet our requirements, in addition to the time required to move the USAPA World Wide Headquarters. So the board, desiring to move forward, make a selection, and finish this project called for a special meeting with the single agenda item of "office space." Here is where the union train goes off the rails. On January 15, an e-mail from a board member went out requesting a special meeting as the Broker told us he needed a decision by February 1, 2011. The C&BL requires 1/3, or 4 members to call a meeting. Within a few hours, seven board members responded in favor of a meeting. On January 16 we heard from the President about what a busy schedule he had and how it was an inconvenient time for a meeting about selecting a new office. According to the Constitution, it is supposedly the President who works for the board (and not the other way around). Not to be deterred, the BPR set a deadline for the President to call for the meeting, and if not, the BPR decided that it would have the Secretary/Treasurer call for the meeting in accordance with Robert's Rules if the President missed the deadline. The President missed that deadline, so the seven members of the board who had originally called for the meeting then directed the S/T to call the meeting. We then heard from the President (in an overly-dramatic fashion) and he asserted the theory that he was the only one (or in his absence, only the VP) who could call a meeting. The message was in the form of, shall we say an "unkind" e-mail to the entire internal USAPA mailing list. The email was disparaging to the S/T, the EVP, and even the entire board. This did not set a positive tone for a meeting that should have only been the straight-forward business decision of choosing office space. The President did eventually call for a meeting, which took place on January 21st. Just so that everyone knows the players in this game, the President, and the CLT representatives preferred the Lake Point property. The rest of the board was either undecided, or leaning toward Woodlawn. So sets the controversy. There was a three-hour call which should have been plenty of time to debate and vote on the issue. During the call, it became clear that we were not getting any closer to making the decision, and had not even discussed the 5 or 7 year lease aspect. Time was getting short and the CLT reps moved a resolution to end the debate and make a decision in favor of their preferred "Lake Point" property right then. A vote was taken and the resolution failed by a vote of 8 to 3. The call ended and the meeting went into recess to be resumed at the call of the chair. At this point the ugly politics of personal destruction began. Many of you may have seen e-mails, or web posts, or even a letter from a former BOS representative accusing anyone that opposed the President and the Lake Point property of being anti-everything. The letter stated that if some of the East reps dared to agree with the West reps, then they were colluding and that it must be stopped. The letter continued to assert that if you don't vote for Lake Point, then you were anti-USAPA, anti- president, AND (most of all) Anti-DOH! Let us be crystal clear, this was only about the new headquarters location for the union, and a simple business decision. It has nothing at all to do with the seniority dispute, and certainly not about "being against USAPA" and let's not forget that the President is not USAPA- the line pilots are. Since we do not have a background in commercial real estate, some of this made no sense to us but we sorted out some of the numbers anyway. After adding the rent, "build-out" cost, building "give back," etcetera, we get to bottom line numbers. As you will see, there is a difference of $229,449 or $272,459 over the life of the 5 or 7 years leases. Not the $25,000 per year some people have stated. Wood Lawn: 5 Years 7 Years Lake Point 5 Years 7 Years Total Amount $616,941 $897,973 $846,390 $1,170,432 Net effective Per Annum $111,250 $114,199 $161,329 $152,952 Once the battle lines were drawn and electronic attacks were launched, it was time for the continuation of the special meeting. This second call took place on January 25th. David could not be on that call because he was flying and asked PHX First Officer Pat O'Neill to be his Duly Designated Representative (DDR), since Pat has considerable real estate experience. This call was supposed to be a one-and-one-half hour event to complete the debate and make a decision. This call, however, has been characterized by some in attendance as having been the most disgusting and blatant attempt yet to thwart the will of those not in agreement with Cleary on any matter. The meeting was controlled, monopolized, and a questionable ruling by the chair disgusted a majority of the board. Again the CLT reps brought a resolution to the table that was plainly designed as a "poison pill" resolution for the purpose of killing any debate and preventing action on a property other than the one desired by the minority and the President. This is one of the more concerning parts of that resolution. "Be it further resolved that BPR is fully aware of all the consequences associated with this decision and accepts all legal and proprietary responsibility for choosing this substandard property and location for its headquarters, and". The CLT Representatives wanted the association to take on any and all legal liability stemming from occupying that building. We ask that you read this resolution when it is available and ask yourselves if you would be willing to agree to the provisions in that document? Would you want your association to accept unlimited responsibility for liability? When the minutes of these calls are approved the entire complete resolutions will be available for you to look at. The meeting was moving quickly (for once) and Roberts' Rules were being applied in a less than consistent manner. At this point, Eric moved to "indefinitely postpone" the CLT resolution. After taking about twenty minutes to discern what a motion to "indefinitely postpone" the issue on the floor, the Chairman (Mike Cleary) then ruled that all discussion about the Woodlawn property must end because the motion was postponed. Eric then attempted to "challenge the chair," (which is a proper motion that must be made before moving onto other business), about the chairs ruling that this meant that no action could then be taken on the Woodlawn property. The chair would not recognize Eric at this time by stating that he must wait until his turn on the speakers list before challenging his ruling. The President was not correct about that, but in all fairness, no member of your leadership team has all 400 pages of "Robert's Rules of Order" memorized. At that time the meeting clock had been run out like a football game, and the DCA Chairman made a motion to recess the meeting until February 1st (rather than letting the meeting end without a decision). This was a good move on his part, but nonetheless the call ended (though not the meeting) again without a decision being made. We would now have another meeting scheduled for February 1, (which the president wanted as a "face-to-face" this time), which would have caused all eleven board members to travel to CLT to again discuss an item that a majority of the board had decided and was ready to vote on long ago. There simply was no need for additional "flight pay loss" or additional expenses, so most of the board did not support the idea of having an in-person meeting to settle the issue. It was already past time to vote! To clear up what could be called an urban legend: The biggest objection we have heard about Woodlawn is that the area is unsafe. That is, that it is in a "high crime area" and we should not subject our officers, committee members or employees to that "possibility." The EVP has spoken to the Chief of Police as well as the "Watch Commander" for the area and investigated the crime statistics and reports. Gary has also interviewed the other tenets of the building. What made up our minds was that this location was acceptable were the interviews with the existing residents. There are tenants in this building that have been in the same location for 15-20 years. They did not report any unusual crime or maintenance problems with the building. That length of stay in a commercial building is unusual and it speaks volumes. Yes, there are some issues that need to be addressed, but those can (and will) be handled during the final contract writing and "build out" process. The Woodlawn property is located at 200 E. Wood Lawn Road. This building shares a parking lot with the Best Western Sterling hotel which is where many of the crews used to stay during overnights, and where many commuting pilots still do stay. Within the "danger zone" of one-thousand feet is where the Four Points hotel is also located. This is the same hotel where the USAPA officers stay while they are in CLT doing their work. The Four Points is also where BPR members often stay when we have meetings in CLT, and is also where some crews stay during training. There are several restaurants located within a short walk of this hotel. A bar/restaurant called "McCoy's" is located just around the corner and less than a block from the Four Points. To get there from the Four Points, a walk across a poorly lit parking lot, under a bridge and across a street is required. The Woodlawn property is just on the other side of the street from McCoy's. We see the Woodlawn building on the short walk to dinner all of the time. We then walk back to the hotel at night. We have stayed there several times over the last year, but never heard a single complaint or concern about danger or crime until we were going to lease that building across the street. There is something contrived about the sudden and extreme security concerns about the area, because it just wasn't an issue before. The Woodlawn property is near the airport, a commuter hotel, and a crew hotel. Wouldn't it be nice to have easier access to your union's National Officers? During a layover, or even during that long sit between flights, you will soon be able to jump on a hotel van to go visit the World Wide HQ. Then you can enjoy a face-to-face chat with the very people who have been working hard to deliver on all of those promises made three years ago. Another advantage of the Woodlawn property is the additional cost savings beyond the property rental fees alone. The Woodlawn property is well within walking distance of the Four Points, so we will save the cost of local transportation. As of today, there is a $20 per night difference between the room rates at the Four Points and the Hyatt Place where USAPA sometimes holds meetings. At least 1000 room nights per year, this results in an additional $20,000 per year or $100,000.00 over the life of the lease. This represents a significant savings for the Association and, ultimately, the pilot's dues money. When taken as a whole, we think that the Woodlawn property makes the most sense, and we were pleased that it appeared to be the front-runner. We will admit that the Lake Point building is very nice, located in what appears to be a nice area and also has a few amenities. But $250,000 is $250,000 no matter how you look at it. So we ask you: Would you, as the lowest paid pilot group in the industry, rather have the pretty building, or the functional building as your union hall? From what committee or domicile budget would you like to take the difference from? Safety, grievance, NAC, strike-prep, training? There is always a limited amount of resources available, and the representatives that you have elected must determine how to allocate your money most efficiently. Keep in mind that USAPA is a labor union. We don't sell anything, and we don't need to impress anyone with our office. If someone is coming to the office is it to sell USAPA something or provide a service, and not the other way around. We are not like ALPA that requires the big and impressive building because USAPA is supposed to be doing the job better, and for less money. After all, it is your money. The Final Outcome: It took several meetings, three conference calls and a lot of empty rhetoric, but the Board of Pilot Representatives finally made a decision. The resolution that finally passed is attached. Your union will be housed at the Woodlawn property for the next five years ideally beginning on May 1st, 2011. This was not an easy decision or without a considerable amount of disagreement, but it has come to a conclusion. But, before this simple resolution passed, there was another attempt to change the game again. After a brief recess during the February 1st conference call, an amendment was offered by the CLT reps to provide additional private security at the building in order to walk the employees to and from their cars. It was the opinion of most of the BPR that, while this sounded like a noble idea, it was a bit late in the decision making process to be of any value and the need for this additional security (when the building already has security) was unnecessary and only based on the opinion that the existing security was inadequate. We have spent six months working through the process investigating many ancillary items. It seemed disingenuous and irresponsible to throw in a last minute amendment which could have added an additional unknown cost (possibly $50,000-$60,000.00 per year) to the Union's expenses. No one had researched any Security companies or the cost, the majority thought it was unnecessary, and this amendment was promptly voted down. In yet another attempt (and thankfully, the last one) to prevent the selection of the Woodlawn property, the CLT reps again proposed a substitute resolution that, after six months of hard work and using the resource of a commercial real estate broker, would have required a {"do-over"} of the entire process. In other words, the substitute resolution would have required both of the final candidates to be thrown out, and to start the process over. In the face of a final decision, it was actually stated by several members of the BPR that a "do over" was in order. Does this sound familiar to you? Most of the board was incredulous as this would have set us back another 3-5 months and cost the association double rent while we stayed in the present location. Practically speaking, the EVP and the broker had looked at the available spaces in CLT that met a host of well thought out requirements. It was not like there was some hidden and spectacular office space that no one knew about. We would have probably ended up with the same choices again, except without the top picks this time and months later (and a bit poorer for spending excess rent). Also, we doubt the real estate broker would have been too impressed with his client after spending months looking for a property, delivering what was requested, and then to having to do it all over again. It would have made the association look foolish and indecisive. That substitute resolution was also voted down as well. After a long journey and some hard feelings, the board has made a decision where to house the World Wide Headquarters of USAPA for the next five years. On a personal note, some of the things said during this lengthy debate were offensive and out of line. We hope that the next issue can be handled with a little more professionalism and civility. Sincerely, David Braid PHX Chairman Eric Ferguson PHX Vice-Chairman Roger Velez PHX Vice-Chairman Pat O'Neill DDR during two of the required calls. __________________ |
Originally Posted by cactiboss
(Post 944193)
You can read about the goings on of the only union in the country designed to screw it's members.
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Aww, man, you beat me to it. Coupled with the cops being called to USAPA World Headquarters to break up a fight between two USAPA officers (both East guys), you have dysfunction at it's best.
Adult supervision, someone? |
I know it's not my place to say, but I'm predicting this will happen:
The east guys will realize they were silly to ever think they would get date of hire and the west guys will give up on the nic. They'll get a new arbitrator and he'll have a new list that looks pretty close to the nic but favors the east FOs a little more. (and kinda screws the west FOs) I wish it would happen soon too, all this bickering is getting old. |
Originally Posted by KillingMeSmalls
(Post 944270)
I know it's not my place to say, but I'm predicting this will happen:
The east guys will realize they were silly to ever think they would get date of hire and the west guys will give up on the nic. They'll get a new arbitrator and he'll have a new list that looks pretty close to the nic but favors the east FOs a little more. (and kinda screws the west FOs) I wish it would happen soon too, all this bickering is getting old. |
deleted............................
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Originally Posted by KillingMeSmalls
(Post 944270)
I know it's not my place to say, but I'm predicting this will happen:
The east guys will realize they were silly to ever think they would get date of hire and the west guys will give up on the nic. They'll get a new arbitrator and he'll have a new list that looks pretty close to the nic but favors the east FOs a little more. (and kinda screws the west FOs) I wish it would happen soon too, all this bickering is getting old. Careful what you wish for... If they are successful un-doing a binding arbitration, just imagine what management will do when a binding arbitration goes against them. :p For example the current snap back grievance at USAir east... :D |
"World Wide Headquarters". :confused:
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So they had a big infantile squabble primarily concerning a new headquarters selection that centered around personal safety and freedom from assault and the VP punctuated his concern by assault ?
If so, what a band of idiots. |
They need to buy an inflatable rat. I'd love to see the fight.....
Hey, I wanna rat. No!!! I wanna snake. |
can i get a tl;dr version?
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The past several years, have resulted in prolonged, unrelenting stress for the USAirways pilot group. Meanwhile, available sick days as well as vacation time, which should be increased as a coping mechanism, have been instead reduced. While stress is a process used to cope with the normal challenges in life, numerous medical and psychological studies have suggested that lingering, inordinate amounts of stress can have devastating effects on the psyche as well as the body. Studies show prolonged stress hormones can actually cause shrinking in the hippocampus. There are four known major sources of stress. Frustration is stress due to situations in which the pursuit of a goal is thwarted. Frustration comes from the loss of something once considered a part of life. Conflict is another recognized source of stress. Studies have indicated that the more conflict a person experiences, the greater the likelihood for anxiety, depression, and physical symptoms. A third source of stress is change. The changes that result in noticeable alterations in one's living circumstances, requiring life adjustments are particularly stressful. Psychiatrists Holmes & Rahe developed the Social Readjustment Rating Scale (SRRS) to measure life changes. They found that while big changes like death of a loved one are very stressful, small life changes have tremendous effects. Using the SRRS, studies have indicated that people with higher scores tend to be more vulnerable to many different physical and psychological illnesses. Finally, the fourth source of stress is pressure which comes from expectations that one must behave in a certain way. All stress leads to impaired task performance resulting in increased distractibility and over thinking on tasks that should be automatic.
No matter which side one is on in this seniority dispute, I think that we can agree that the America West pilots miscalculated the USAirways pilots resolve. They felt that the pay disparity would push the USAirways pilots to accept the Nicolau Award. The USAirways pilots will never agree to the Nicolau Award. The longer that this civil war lasts, the more irreversible damage is done. USAirways continues to operate in this unsafe atmosphere at not only its own financial peril but with a clear and present danger to its passengers. This is a textbook case of what happens when a labor group is pushed too far. Sadly, it is too late; the damage is done but perhaps measures can be taken that will at least prevent more damage to the pilot group and this company. I think it ill-advised for anyone to gloat over a situation that is so potentially deadly. |
Originally Posted by justjack
(Post 944378)
The past several years, have resulted in prolonged, unrelenting stress for the USAirways pilot group. Meanwhile, available sick days as well as vacation time, which should be increased as a coping mechanism, have been instead reduced. While stress is a process used to cope with the normal challenges in life, numerous medical and psychological studies have suggested that lingering, inordinate amounts of stress can have devastating effects on the psyche as well as the body. Studies show prolonged stress hormones can actually cause shrinking in the hippocampus. There are four known major sources of stress. Frustration is stress due to situations in which the pursuit of a goal is thwarted. Frustration comes from the loss of something once considered a part of life. Conflict is another recognized source of stress. Studies have indicated that the more conflict a person experiences, the greater the likelihood for anxiety, depression, and physical symptoms. A third source of stress is change. The changes that result in noticeable alterations in one's living circumstances, requiring life adjustments are particularly stressful. Psychiatrists Holmes & Rahe developed the Social Readjustment Rating Scale (SRRS) to measure life changes. They found that while big changes like death of a loved one are very stressful, small life changes have tremendous effects. Using the SRRS, studies have indicated that people with higher scores tend to be more vulnerable to many different physical and psychological illnesses. Finally, the fourth source of stress is pressure which comes from expectations that one must behave in a certain way. All stress leads to impaired task performance resulting in increased distractibility and over thinking on tasks that should be automatic.
No matter which side one is on in this seniority dispute, I think that we can agree that the America West pilots miscalculated the USAirways pilots resolve. They felt that the pay disparity would push the USAirways pilots to accept the Nicolau Award. The USAirways pilots will never agree to the Nicolau Award. The longer that this civil war lasts, the more irreversible damage is done. USAirways continues to operate in this unsafe atmosphere at not only its own financial peril but with a clear and present danger to its passengers. This is a textbook case of what happens when a labor group is pushed too far. Sadly, it is too late; the damage is done but perhaps measures can be taken that will at least prevent more damage to the pilot group and this company. I think it ill-advised for anyone to gloat over a situation that is so potentially deadly. You have responsibilities as a crewmember not to operate an aircraft if you feel you are too stressed out to do it safely. If you're going to throw the safety card down to justify an (ineffective) approach to having a SLI overturned, you need to consider all the implications. The most obvious in this case is that you're obviously not safe to fly, either because a) you're right, and therefore you are too stressed out to fly, and must remove yourself from the cockpit; or b) you're going along with this "unsafe atmosphere at not only its own financial peril but with a clear and present danger to its passengers", in which case your judgment is severely flawed, and you need to be removed. But that's not what's going on here, is it? You offer this sadly conflicted way out: "...Sadly, it is too late; the damage is done but perhaps measures can be taken that will at least prevent more damage to the pilot group and this company..." Riiight. The damage is done, but perhaps... if you got some more seniority... it would be "undone". |
Originally Posted by justjack
(Post 944378)
No matter which side one is on in this seniority dispute, I think that we can agree that the America West pilots miscalculated the USAirways pilots resolve. They felt that the pay disparity would push the USAirways pilots to accept the Nicolau Award. The USAirways pilots will never agree to the Nicolau Award. The longer that this civil war lasts, the more irreversible damage is done.
This meltdown is just a symptom of a group that abandoned any values other than self interest. While they had a boogy man of the "Westies" they could stay together, but eventually the value deficit shows through and this is what you end up with. |
Binding
–adjective 6. that binds; restrictive. 7. having power to bind or oblige; obligatory: a binding promise. |
Nicolau warned the East merger committee that the DOH proposal wasn't going to go in their favor, they needed to be more flexible and submit something else for his consideration. In total arrogance, the East merger committee refused to submit a different final proposal. The rest is history... :rolleyes:
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A report/update from Cactiboss regarding USair east & USAPA is like a report from Racheal Maddow/Keith Olberman on the Tea Party.
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Originally Posted by justjack
(Post 944378)
The past several years, have resulted in prolonged, unrelenting stress for the USAirways pilot group. Meanwhile, available sick days as well as vacation time, which should be increased as a coping mechanism, have been instead reduced. While stress is a process used to cope with the normal challenges in life, numerous medical and psychological studies have suggested that lingering, inordinate amounts of stress can have devastating effects on the psyche as well as the body. Studies show prolonged stress hormones can actually cause shrinking in the hippocampus. There are four known major sources of stress. Frustration is stress due to situations in which the pursuit of a goal is thwarted. Frustration comes from the loss of something once considered a part of life. Conflict is another recognized source of stress. Studies have indicated that the more conflict a person experiences, the greater the likelihood for anxiety, depression, and physical symptoms. A third source of stress is change. The changes that result in noticeable alterations in one's living circumstances, requiring life adjustments are particularly stressful. Psychiatrists Holmes & Rahe developed the Social Readjustment Rating Scale (SRRS) to measure life changes. They found that while big changes like death of a loved one are very stressful, small life changes have tremendous effects. Using the SRRS, studies have indicated that people with higher scores tend to be more vulnerable to many different physical and psychological illnesses. Finally, the fourth source of stress is pressure which comes from expectations that one must behave in a certain way. All stress leads to impaired task performance resulting in increased distractibility and over thinking on tasks that should be automatic.
No matter which side one is on in this seniority dispute, I think that we can agree that the America West pilots miscalculated the USAirways pilots resolve. They felt that the pay disparity would push the USAirways pilots to accept the Nicolau Award. The USAirways pilots will never agree to the Nicolau Award. The longer that this civil war lasts, the more irreversible damage is done. USAirways continues to operate in this unsafe atmosphere at not only its own financial peril but with a clear and present danger to its passengers. This is a textbook case of what happens when a labor group is pushed too far. Sadly, it is too late; the damage is done but perhaps measures can be taken that will at least prevent more damage to the pilot group and this company. I think it ill-advised for anyone to gloat over a situation that is so potentially deadly. The fact is, the east pilots selected a path by their own choice and knew the risks. Now, it's implied that if the infants don't get their way soon, one or more may go postal and do something spectacular and external "stress" is to blame and is the responsibility of others. Baloney. This type of infantile behavior is the responsibility of the infants and no one else. Parker would be best to cut this from the company, even if it takes a BK situation to do it. He should be considering this situation to be intolerable and unacceptable. Parker needs to be a CEO and take back control of the business. |
Originally Posted by DAL330drvr
(Post 944428)
Nicolau warned the East merger committee that the DOH proposal wasn't going to go in their favor, they needed to be more flexible and submit something else for his consideration. In total arrogance, the East merger committee refused to submit a different final proposal. The rest is history... :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by DAL330drvr
(Post 944428)
Nicolau warned the East merger committee that the DOH proposal wasn't going to go in their favor, they needed to be more flexible and submit something else for his consideration. In total arrogance, the East merger committee refused to submit a different final proposal. The rest is history... :rolleyes:
I have no dog in this fight, but I sure hope that the East gets what they deserve. Grow up. |
Originally Posted by justjack
(Post 944378)
the America West pilots miscalculated the USAirways pilots resolve. They felt that the pay disparity would push the USAirways pilots to accept the Nicolau Award. The USAirways pilots will never agree to the Nicolau Award. The longer that this civil war lasts, the more irreversible damage is done. USAirways continues to operate in this unsafe atmosphere at not only its own financial peril but with a clear and present danger to its passengers. This is a textbook case of what happens when a labor group is pushed too far.
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Originally Posted by GW258
(Post 944433)
A report/update from Cactiboss regarding USair east & USAPA is like a report from Racheal Maddow/Keith Olberman on the Tea Party.
How about we take the Charlotte police departments word for it instead of a westie? "The public police report of the January 25th "alleged" assault at USAPA’s Headquarters has been released by the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department. The report is available for viewing by visiting the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department website at home. Search the left column under "crime reports", then enter the complaint number of “20110125115600”, and then the victim's last name of “Streble”. The incident is classified/categorized as "Simple Assault."" |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 944274)
Or they could all be men, and stick to the arbitration they agreed to. :rolleyes:
Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 944291)
If so, what a band of idiots.
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 944400)
This meltdown is just a symptom of a group that abandoned any values other than self interest...eventually the value deficit shows through and this is what you end up with.
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Originally Posted by cactiboss
(Post 944490)
You guys just can't seem to tell the truth, typical of union busting easties.
How about we take the Charlotte police departments word for it instead of a westie? "The public police report of the January 25th "alleged" assault at USAPA’s Headquarters has been released by the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department. The report is available for viewing by visiting the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department website at home. Search the left column under "crime reports", then enter the complaint number of “20110125115600”, and then the victim's last name of “Streble”. The incident is classified/categorized as "Simple Assault."" How come the report doesn't show the name of the aggressor? Was it USAPA's VP? |
Originally Posted by DAL330drvr
(Post 944606)
How come the report doesn't show the name of the aggressor? Was it USAPA's VP?
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Originally Posted by cactiboss
(Post 944728)
Yep. I think is name Mowery.
I don't have a dog on this fight, but if I was a USAirways pilot, I would demand only the best people/leaders to take USAPA and the pilots they represent forward! |
You are not calling my bluff, sir. I intended no animosity towards EITHER pilot group, but rather compassion for BOTH. So calm down. Your reaction(S) are precisely what I was talking about. First of all- I was referring to both groups regarding the effects of stress- I can see how one would not know because I said USAirways pilots and with the situation over there I could mean the entire pilot group or the East side of operations. Having said this, USAirways has a great track record as far as safety if one looks at the empirical evidence alone.In regards to why it was posted here,(frankly I do not know about the voracity of this account. I will say it's not how I hear it but- what I heard was second hand) was that it is no wonder there is so much inappropriate behavior out of the cockpit with this level of stress at this company which I absolutely do believe will spill over into the work environment as well. While I realize that pilots should be professional, it is hard to know what will prove to be the proverbial straw. As far as not flying when one feels unsafe- I doubt that many pilots can really afford to take time off. I do stand by my opinion that it is not safe and that it is just a matter of time before something unsatisfactory happens.
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I, as many here, are not parties to it, but have read the award and do see windfalls that your group got. I can only imagine the wailing that would come from you were the roles reversed.
Finally...please get this through your head. YOU and the West pilots DID NOT buy East. Your company did. You, like the rest of us, are nothing more than a blue collar worker in a white shirt. And those of us who have been around the barn for awhile remember how West got started and it's woes over the years. So please spare us the halo. |
Originally Posted by cactiboss
(Post 944490)
You guys just can't seem to tell the truth, typical of union busting easties.
How about we take the Charlotte police departments word for it instead of a westie? "The public police report of the January 25th "alleged" assault at USAPA’s Headquarters has been released by the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department. The report is available for viewing by visiting the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department website at home. Search the left column under "crime reports", then enter the complaint number of “20110125115600”, and then the victim's last name of “Streble”. The incident is classified/categorized as "Simple Assault."" cactiboss- If a senority number is so important to you that you will publicly slander another pilot, then why are you not offended by the windfall an old man gave your group? I don't know how old you are but you better hope the U east folks prevail as far as the future and future list combinations goes. [EDIT: delete flamebait] |
Moderator note:
If you want to discuss the USAPA, please do. What private parties do, completely unrelated to USAPA, have no bearing on that discussion. Please leave them out. Tony |
Originally Posted by GW258
(Post 945020)
cactiboss- If a senority number is so important to you that you will publicly slander another pilot, then why are you not offended by the windfall an old man gave your group?
I don't know how old you are but you better hope the U east folks prevail as far as the future and future list combinations goes. [EDIT: delete flamebait] |
GW258 - cactiboss did indeed, publicly slander another pilot, in my opinion. After I read his post I was reminded of the seven types of lies.
One type- '"Potential Truths – Saying something as if it were fact without knowing for sure that it is true is also a lie. Fabrication is also included in this category. Rather than something that is just pulled out of the air, it could also be a misinterpretation of information or drawing false conclusions. Like explaining a scientific concept without actually knowing the fundamental principles and making it seem like you know what you are talking about or telling someone who asked for directions the way to someplace when you don’t actually know where it is." This behavior is particularly reprehensible in light of the post that has thankfully, been since removed. |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 944991)
I, as many here, are not parties to it, but have read the award and do see windfalls that your group got. I can only imagine the wailing that would come from you were the roles reversed.
Finally...please get this through your head. YOU and the West pilots DID NOT buy East. Your company did. You, like the rest of us, are nothing more than a blue collar worker in a white shirt. And those of us who have been around the barn for awhile remember how West got started and it's woes over the years. So please spare us the halo. |
Originally Posted by justjack
(Post 945336)
I agree completely with your post, but I have read multiple accounts of the financing and I do believe that technically it was a merger rather than a buy out of any sort - either way the most poignant and important thing that you pointed out is that airline pilots "are nothing more than a blue collar worker in a white shirt." The sooner airline pilots realize this and start acting like real blue collar unions, the sooner they will all have a fighting chance against management.
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Originally Posted by justjack
(Post 944858)
You are not calling my bluff, sir. I intended no animosity towards EITHER pilot group, but rather compassion for BOTH. So calm down. Your reaction(S) are precisely what I was talking about. First of all- I was referring to both groups regarding the effects of stress- I can see how one would not know because I said USAirways pilots and with the situation over there I could mean the entire pilot group or the East side of operations. Having said this, USAirways has a great track record as far as safety if one looks at the empirical evidence alone.In regards to why it was posted here,(frankly I do not know about the voracity of this account. I will say it's not how I hear it but- what I heard was second hand) was that it is no wonder there is so much inappropriate behavior out of the cockpit with this level of stress at this company which I absolutely do believe will spill over into the work environment as well. While I realize that pilots should be professional, it is hard to know what will prove to be the proverbial straw. As far as not flying when one feels unsafe- I doubt that many pilots can really afford to take time off. I do stand by my opinion that it is not safe and that it is just a matter of time before something unsatisfactory happens.
I think the greatest stressor of all rests in a failure to accept reality, as much as it hurts, and to fail to honor one's commitments. The East group appears perpetually stuck between anger and denial, and sadly may remain that way until retired. I don't say this with any satisfaction, because I do acknowledge that it would be a tall order indeed for a UsAir pilot to accept what has happened to his/her career. Conversely, what a UsAir pilot would gain in a SLI, a AWA pilot would lose, and so it would not be fair to punish the AWA pilot for the fate of the UsAir pilot. At any rate, if any pilot is so wound up about this that they cannot fly, they should remove themselves. That is their responsibility. I do agree that the conditions of all pilots in the industry, while acceptable, are not optimal. This is true for almost every airline, including a number that merged. The difference with the East group, is that everyone else managed to live up to their agreements, and has been able to wrok together. |
Originally Posted by cactiboss
(Post 945251)
So this is slandering? A public report from a police report regarding the behavior of a usapa union leader in the union office?
It is you who clarified my position with the NIC award. It is the scab list that makes me understand the venom that flows from PHX. |
Uspa founders speak
What is the state of our Union today? In short, it is dreadful! Notice: This letter has not been endorsed by Jamie Weidner or Eric Jordan Philadelphia USAPA pilots: We are writing you to ask for your support of Jamie Weidner and Eric Jordan as your next PHL BPR Vice Chairman Representatives. They are good men without a lot of baggage from ALPA, and they bring fresh ideas and the spirit of volunteerism that our union needs. We note the other two candidates Mike Gillies and Brian Pflanzer are in the President’s pocket. They haven’t got an original idea between themselves, nothing more than Mike Cleary rubber stamps. Jamie and Eric answer to nobody; they think for themselves and are ready and willing to do the work for our pilots. What is the state of our Union? In short it is dreadful! Our president is acting like a dictator. As an example, it has now taken 5 meetings to move the offices in Charlotte. Mike Cleary has used delay, obfuscation and dilatory parliamentary procedures to stop the will of 2/3 of the Board of Pilot Representatives regarding a simple office move. There have been at least two recorded physical attacks in our Union, both directed at Secretary Treasurer Rob Streble. The first involved Mike Cleary. He placed his hands around Rob Streble’s neck in an argument over a billing for liquor on a credit card, which is against the USAPA Constitution. The second incident and more recent, involves Vice President Randy Mowrey pushing Rob Steble into a metal door frame over an argument regarding the ability of the Secretary Treasurer to call a meeting at the request of 1/3 of the Board of Pilot Representatives. This duty is clearly described and detailed in the Union Operating Manual. The most recent event was reported to the Charlotte Police. The BPR is aware of BOTH these allegations, as is USAPA outside legal counsel. Our current VP has a history of physical confrontation. He was tried but not convicted in FL of an incident involving the threat of violence. He was arrested for this event. They say where there is smoke there is fire, we don’t need the likes of Randy Mowery bringing his physical confrontational style into our own offices. Both Cleary and Mowrey need to resign for the good our Union. Our union’s communication policy fails to produce complete and accurate information. You, the line pilot are not getting an accurate picture. You are not hearing civil discussion or debate. Our current President says that this is divisive and reminiscent of the old ALPA. BULL****! No democratic body can hold itself up as such without allowing and supporting vigorous and spirited debate. Our current BPR is not fulfilling their leadership role in telling you the line pilot about what is going on. First and foremost they must communicate to you to tell you what is happening at our meetings and they must speak frankly. They have not been doing this. They have been told that to speak against the “company line” from Mike Cleary is dangerous and divisive. I urge them to do so and in their own words describe what they think the state of our Union is and what the major issues facing our pilots are. Our pilots are in the dark. The recent PHX update on the Office move that is posted on several web boards and available on the USAPA web site is titled “What does it take to move an Office.” It is an accurate and unbiased description of what has been transpiring in our union regarding the Office move. Please read it. It describes how the current leadership is manipulating the democratic process to attempt to thwart the will of 2/3 of the BPR. We have a major difference with the West in the seniority issue. Jamie Weidner and Eric Jordan support Date of Hire as is specified in the Constitution. This is a guiding principle of our union and it is enshrined in the Constitution. However, absent the seniority issue we work with the West reps as members in good standing of USAPA. Brian Pflanzer and others have painted anyone who would cooperate with the West on issues other than seniority as traitors and supporters of the Nicolau award .It is a boldfaced DAMN lie. In fact, the mere act of not working with the West BPR members as equal members threatens our very charter. This cannot stand; they are a part of this Union and have the right to participate without any bias associated with outside litigation. It is ridiculous to assume that any member who would call a West pilot friend or deal with him in a business like manner is somehow a traitor to the East. Brian Pflanzer has accused a PHL rep of being just such a traitor because West and East Reps have voted together on some issues unrelated to seniority. The word Union denotes coming together of those persons who labor in our craft and derive that Unity from our association. The seniority issue does divide us but there are many more issues that help unite us. Using idiotic words like traitor and painting any West pilot as the enemy is just plain stupid and shows a basic lack of understanding of the entire concept of a union. We both worked quietly behind the scenes as Mike Cleary’s troubled behavior tainted everything we had worked for in starting this fine Union. He only left the ALPA nipple mere weeks before the election, and paid himself handsomely during his first year, often to the cap. We respected the will of the pilots and sat quietly for another year, knowing all well he was not the man to lead this group. We gave you our quick and dirty assessment last year during the EVP election, but apparently our words fell on deaf ears. This current leadership is out of control, and doing just what Mike Cleary always lectured to us in the beginning. “Power is never given it is always taken.” He is attempting to do just that now, by ghostwriting for the candidates of his choice. You will notice that we sign what we write. Not so with Cleary. Philadelphia pilots, this election for BPR Vice Chairman has become a skirmish in a much greater debate about the course of our union. If you want pair of Presidential “rubber stamps” then vote for Mike Gillies and Brian Pflanzer. They are Cleary cronies, plain and simple. If you want independent and hard working representation then vote for Jamie Weidner and Eric Jordan. They are not in anyone’s pocket, ours or otherwise, and they will not toe the company line or an un-democratic union line if the current leadership attempts it. Sincerely, Steve Bradford and Mark King |
Originally Posted by cactiboss
(Post 948757)
Uspa founders speak
What is the state of our Union today? In short, it is dreadful! Notice: This letter has not been endorsed by Jamie Weidner or Eric Jordan Philadelphia USAPA pilots: We are writing you to ask for your support of Jamie Weidner and Eric Jordan as your next PHL BPR Vice Chairman Representatives. They are good men without a lot of baggage from ALPA, and they bring fresh ideas and the spirit of volunteerism that our union needs. We note the other two candidates Mike Gillies and Brian Pflanzer are in the President’s pocket. They haven’t got an original idea between themselves, nothing more than Mike Cleary rubber stamps. Jamie and Eric answer to nobody; they think for themselves and are ready and willing to do the work for our pilots. What is the state of our Union? In short it is dreadful! Our president is acting like a dictator. As an example, it has now taken 5 meetings to move the offices in Charlotte. Mike Cleary has used delay, obfuscation and dilatory parliamentary procedures to stop the will of 2/3 of the Board of Pilot Representatives regarding a simple office move. There have been at least two recorded physical attacks in our Union, both directed at Secretary Treasurer Rob Streble. The first involved Mike Cleary. He placed his hands around Rob Streble’s neck in an argument over a billing for liquor on a credit card, which is against the USAPA Constitution. The second incident and more recent, involves Vice President Randy Mowrey pushing Rob Steble into a metal door frame over an argument regarding the ability of the Secretary Treasurer to call a meeting at the request of 1/3 of the Board of Pilot Representatives. This duty is clearly described and detailed in the Union Operating Manual. The most recent event was reported to the Charlotte Police. The BPR is aware of BOTH these allegations, as is USAPA outside legal counsel. Our current VP has a history of physical confrontation. He was tried but not convicted in FL of an incident involving the threat of violence. He was arrested for this event. They say where there is smoke there is fire, we don’t need the likes of Randy Mowery bringing his physical confrontational style into our own offices. Both Cleary and Mowrey need to resign for the good our Union. Our union’s communication policy fails to produce complete and accurate information. You, the line pilot are not getting an accurate picture. You are not hearing civil discussion or debate. Our current President says that this is divisive and reminiscent of the old ALPA. BULL****! No democratic body can hold itself up as such without allowing and supporting vigorous and spirited debate. Our current BPR is not fulfilling their leadership role in telling you the line pilot about what is going on. First and foremost they must communicate to you to tell you what is happening at our meetings and they must speak frankly. They have not been doing this. They have been told that to speak against the “company line” from Mike Cleary is dangerous and divisive. I urge them to do so and in their own words describe what they think the state of our Union is and what the major issues facing our pilots are. Our pilots are in the dark. The recent PHX update on the Office move that is posted on several web boards and available on the USAPA web site is titled “What does it take to move an Office.” It is an accurate and unbiased description of what has been transpiring in our union regarding the Office move. Please read it. It describes how the current leadership is manipulating the democratic process to attempt to thwart the will of 2/3 of the BPR. We have a major difference with the West in the seniority issue. Jamie Weidner and Eric Jordan support Date of Hire as is specified in the Constitution. This is a guiding principle of our union and it is enshrined in the Constitution. However, absent the seniority issue we work with the West reps as members in good standing of USAPA. Brian Pflanzer and others have painted anyone who would cooperate with the West on issues other than seniority as traitors and supporters of the Nicolau award .It is a boldfaced DAMN lie. In fact, the mere act of not working with the West BPR members as equal members threatens our very charter. This cannot stand; they are a part of this Union and have the right to participate without any bias associated with outside litigation. It is ridiculous to assume that any member who would call a West pilot friend or deal with him in a business like manner is somehow a traitor to the East. Brian Pflanzer has accused a PHL rep of being just such a traitor because West and East Reps have voted together on some issues unrelated to seniority. The word Union denotes coming together of those persons who labor in our craft and derive that Unity from our association. The seniority issue does divide us but there are many more issues that help unite us. Using idiotic words like traitor and painting any West pilot as the enemy is just plain stupid and shows a basic lack of understanding of the entire concept of a union. We both worked quietly behind the scenes as Mike Cleary’s troubled behavior tainted everything we had worked for in starting this fine Union. He only left the ALPA nipple mere weeks before the election, and paid himself handsomely during his first year, often to the cap. We respected the will of the pilots and sat quietly for another year, knowing all well he was not the man to lead this group. We gave you our quick and dirty assessment last year during the EVP election, but apparently our words fell on deaf ears. This current leadership is out of control, and doing just what Mike Cleary always lectured to us in the beginning. “Power is never given it is always taken.” He is attempting to do just that now, by ghostwriting for the candidates of his choice. You will notice that we sign what we write. Not so with Cleary. Philadelphia pilots, this election for BPR Vice Chairman has become a skirmish in a much greater debate about the course of our union. If you want pair of Presidential “rubber stamps” then vote for Mike Gillies and Brian Pflanzer. They are Cleary cronies, plain and simple. If you want independent and hard working representation then vote for Jamie Weidner and Eric Jordan. They are not in anyone’s pocket, ours or otherwise, and they will not toe the company line or an un-democratic union line if the current leadership attempts it. Sincerely, Steve Bradford and Mark King You got a link? Date? Anything to confirm you didn't make this up, edit? Who are the factual/unedited authors? I for one am keen to your anti-union skeem. You should be grateful you have a pilot group willing to stand up for something. I know your history! You make a lot of noise because you are not getting the greatest windfall ever in a merger. |
Originally Posted by GW258
(Post 949035)
You got a link? Date? Anything to confirm you didn't make this up, edit?
Who are the factual/unedited authors? I for one am keen to your anti-union skeem. You should be grateful you have a pilot group willing to stand up for something. I know your history! You make a lot of noise because you are not getting the greatest windfall ever in a merger. |
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