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Originally Posted by skeptic
(Post 1183078)
Thank you! Absolutely 100% correct. The whole tired "let's get rid of ALPA" argument is a complete waste of time. The problem is not ALPA (or APA, USAPA, etc.). I have lots of friends at Airways and they can not believe how much of a disaster USAPA has been.
FedEx or Delta management would absolutely love to see ALPA voted out......why do you think that is? |
Is it just me...Or does anyone else smell cubicle on the cargo forum, lately? :eek:
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Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1182795)
How about Evergreen? 1999 CBA, amendedable in 2005, joined ALPA in 2007. They are still under their 1999 CBA, and the only thing is they have lost 1.95% in pay since 2007 to now (2012) and have nothing to show for it! Oh, they did get one TA which was basically an extension of the current contract for another two years. Thanks ALPA!
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Here's the point. ALPA, for all the good it has done in the industry, is not a union. It's an association that happens to be the legally recognized bargaining agent; a move that was done to provide some leverage at it's inception. Each carrier negotiates what it wants. There is no overarching plan for the long term because each carrier wants what it wants.
Now...that worked great in the days of the CAB. If you went on strike, no one could just jump into your markets. Nor could they any other time, the route award process took a long time and could be held up. Not so in the post CAB world. And ALPA, along with the member carriers, refused to come to grips with that and make the necessary changes to adapt to that. So airlines moved into new markets and used that as leverage to cut costs to cover the moves. They came after pilots. And instead of having a union that stood up, they conceded on contracts to stay alive. Why did they concede? Because they had no support. Sure the MCF was great, but at the end of the day it was meaningless if the passenger or cargo customer now had another option in the market. And truth be told, there is nothing a pilot group on strike can do if a passenger or customer chooses to fly on another carrier. Unless there is a way to get the other carrier to stop flying as well. There are two ways to do that. A sympathy strike by the other carriers pilots...impossible because they have a legal agreement and unless there is proof that all the passengers or cargo are from the struck carrier, the pilots are in violation of their own CBA. Second, find a way to stop the struck carrier from moving with scab pilots and other employees who are not a part of the strike. How does that happen? Affiliation, organizing and supporting other airline industry employees. If the airline wants to use and hire scabs, fine...have at it. If the fuelers don't fuel, the mechanics don't turn wrenches, the F/A's won't cross the line, ticket agents and dispatchers don't do their job...the airline stops. If the airline tries to move cargo on another carrier, that airline gets struck by the same union that represents the same folks at the other carrier. So to keep flying, airline #2 tells airline #1 "don't send us your cargo, we won't take it." And what happens is management comes to the table and settles. That can't happen with ALPA. While part of the AFL-CIO, it has always held itself out to be a "cut above" those "other" unions and airline employees. They don't support other unions and as a result, they don't get support. Look at the Amerijet strike. South FL AFL-CIO had members of all unions on the picket lines. There were cops, firefighters, teachers, garbagemen, bus drivers, individual airline MEC's and LEC's...you name it. Fuelers in the Carribbean cut off fuel. Other cargo airlines refused to carry their cargo. Only one national union was missing. ALPA. When the AFL-CIO shows up in force and it's major pilot union doesn't...it sends a message to others. That is the problem created when you refuse to adapt and stand alone. You get no support. How does that relate to the question at hand? Simple. By refusing to focus on true unity and truly standing up for each other, ALPA has allowed itself to become a place where everyone does pretty much what they want and the heck with the other guy. At the same time, they became so focused on $$, they did things that harmed members to improve the bottom line of the Association, not the members. TWA bit back. So will AirTran. Others likely may as well. And ALPA has no understanding of why or how to deal with it, so it falls back on the old mantra of discrediting the malcontents. Which worked in the days where we operated with mailings, letters and whispering campaigns. Times changed with the demise of the CAB and now with electronic media and social networking. And again, ALPA has not. The pilots are more informed. And like Churchill said, "Dictators run to and fro on the backs of tigers they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry." If you want to see how a true airline union works and it's effectiveness, seek out one that represents all types of airline employees and look at how they are doing today. |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1183326)
If you want to see how a true airline union works and it's effectiveness, seek out one that represents all types of airline employees and look at how they are doing today.
You may not realize it but we are the only unionized group on the property. =zero support from other employee groups regardless of who represents us. You are talking about the Teamsters? I checked out who they represent. Wasn't too impressed. Who We Represent | International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT) Amerijet: A 15year 727 Capt. Makes $100/hr. WOO-HOO!:eek: |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1183326)
...
If you want to see how a true airline union works and it's effectiveness, seek out one that represents all types of airline employees and look at how they are doing today. |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1183326)
That can't happen with ALPA. While part of the AFL-CIO, it has always held itself out to be a "cut above" those "other" unions and airline employees. They don't support other unions and as a result, they don't get support. Look at the Amerijet strike. South FL AFL-CIO had members of all unions on the picket lines. There were cops, firefighters, teachers, garbagemen, bus drivers, individual airline MEC's and LEC's...you name it. Fuelers in the Carribbean cut off fuel. Other cargo airlines refused to carry their cargo. Only one national union was missing.
ALPA. When the AFL-CIO shows up in force and it's major pilot union doesn't...it sends a message to others. That is the problem created when you refuse to adapt and stand alone. You get no support. How does that relate to the question at hand? Simple. By refusing to focus on true unity and truly standing up for each other, ALPA has allowed itself to become a place where everyone does pretty much what they want and the heck with the other guy. At the same time, they became so focused on $$, they did things that harmed members to improve the bottom line of the Association, not the members. TWA bit back. So will AirTran. Others likely may as well. And ALPA has no understanding of why or how to deal with it, so it falls back on the old mantra of discrediting the malcontents. Which worked in the days where we operated with mailings, letters and whispering campaigns. Times changed with the demise of the CAB and now with electronic media and social networking. And again, ALPA has not. The pilots are more informed. And like Churchill said, "Dictators run to and fro on the backs of tigers they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry." If you want to see how a true airline union works and it's effectiveness, seek out one that represents all types of airline employees and look at how they are doing today. Why don't you give me multiple examples. After all, Amerijet does make smoking wages. And nobody crossed the picket line, right? APA went to the tables slamming their fists and screaming. That got them far. We all know how well USAPA is doing. And IBT, well they're just burning it up. Republic has been in contract negotiations for 7 years. The AT independent union never got a contract done. I'll be waiting.:D |
If we left ALPA we could regain some self respect as we would no longer be affiliated with the AFL-CIO or SEIU.
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Originally Posted by appDude
(Post 1183432)
If we left ALPA we could regain some self respect as we would no longer be affiliated with the AFL-CIO or SEIU.
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Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1183421)
Why don't you give me multiple examples. After all, Amerijet does make smoking wages. And nobody crossed the picket line, right? APA went to the tables slamming their fists and screaming. That got them far. We all know how well USAPA is doing. And IBT, well they're just burning it up. Republic has been in contract negotiations for 7 years. The AT independent union never got a contract done. I'll be waiting.:D
I brought up the Amerijet as an example of cross union and cross class and craft support. IBT? In the joint CBA that merged Atlas and Polar, Polar went up over 34% and Atlas 27%. Captain on a -400 is over $200/hr. Not as good as some, but with the rigs and profit sharing (18.5%) for 2010 and 2011 going out in a week or so, that put over $25,000 in a lot of folks pockets. Under the new CBA, a projected trip that under the old contract was worth about $14,000 will pay out over $21,000. Remember also it's their second contract. Omni just came up substantially. Republic has been hamstrung by the old, failed leadership that was kicked out three years ago. The merger delayed discussions, but they will move up as well. UAL Mechanics...up and now merging for an even bigger bite of the apple, along with the agreements that brought back all MRO worked that had been farmed out offshore, bringing back furloughed members. Cape Air...first contract with increases. Ever heard of a 402 Captain making close to $100K a year? UPS Mechanics well into six digits. Fact is, they have yet under the new leadership, to agree to a concessionary contract. Any attempts to bring them forward have been met with a message that the IBT will not sign them. You can point at the bottom all you want. What you miss and won't admit it that unless we support each other, everyone is at risk. (And yes, Airline Division pilots joined ALPA brothers at Spirit to walk the line in support, just like the Spirit guys did for them) ALPA wasn't interested in Amerijet...too small, not worthy. ALPA PILOTS stood with them as did individual MEC's and LEC's. National refused. We're all in this together. Until we start acting like it and truly support each other, pilots, F/A's, mechanics, loaders, fuelers...we're gonna keep getting picked off just like we saw in the 80's and 90's. You might ask yourself how many new airlines have joined ALPA in the past 4 years? How's the model working right now? What is ALPA's current growth rate? I personally don't care if you look into things or not. Sometimes facing the truth and making change to survive is just too big a step for some. AirTran...aren't they the pilots that just filed a DFR against ALPA? Like TWA did? And the UAL senior...and junior pilots? Seems like a trend... |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1183460)
I brought up the Amerijet as an example of cross union and cross class and craft support.
IBT? In the joint CBA that merged Atlas and Polar, Polar went up over 34% and Atlas 27%. Captain on a -400 is over $200/hr. Not as good as some, but with the rigs and profit sharing (18.5%) for 2010 and 2011 going out in a week or so, that put over $25,000 in a lot of folks pockets. Under the new CBA, a projected trip that under the old contract was worth about $14,000 will pay out over $21,000. Remember also it's their second contract. Omni just came up substantially. Republic has been hamstrung by the old, failed leadership that was kicked out three years ago. The merger delayed discussions, but they will move up as well. UAL Mechanics...up and now merging for an even bigger bite of the apple, along with the agreements that brought back all MRO worked that had been farmed out offshore, bringing back furloughed members. Cape Air...first contract with increases. Ever heard of a 402 Captain making close to $100K a year? UPS Mechanics well into six digits. Fact is, they have yet under the new leadership, to agree to a concessionary contract. Any attempts to bring them forward have been met with a message that the IBT will not sign them. You can point at the bottom all you want. What you miss and won't admit it that unless we support each other, everyone is at risk. (And yes, Airline Division pilots joined ALPA brothers at Spirit to walk the line in support, just like the Spirit guys did for them) ALPA wasn't interested in Amerijet...too small, not worthy. ALPA PILOTS stood with them as did individual MEC's and LEC's. National refused. We're all in this together. Until we start acting like it and truly support each other, pilots, F/A's, mechanics, loaders, fuelers...we're gonna keep getting picked off just like we saw in the 80's and 90's. You might ask yourself how many new airlines have joined ALPA in the past 4 years? How's the model working right now? What is ALPA's current growth rate? I personally don't care if you look into things or not. Sometimes facing the truth and making change to survive is just too big a step for some. AirTran...aren't they the pilots that just filed a DFR against ALPA? Like TWA did? And the UAL senior...and junior pilots? Seems like a trend... Oh no you don't.. UPS mechanics yes 6 figures but they have PT mechanics too and are very lean compared to FX mechanics. Ask the UAL MX how they like the reamsters they are the worst they have had yet after IAM and AMFA. If the Reamsters have a good contract it is because the company in question offered it and not because of anything the reamsters did. Old Jimmy Hoffa flew NWA during the mechanics AMFA strike in 2005. |
Can it be that ALPA National at it's core (read Nat'l/Legacy carriers) still has not realized and accepted that the Cargo outfits are it's life blood and future? The mindset at Nat'l is still DAL/UA/AMR forever.........no wonder the decision tree is so skewed.......Maybe time for the Cargo Members to flex a little bicep and take control.....after all, we are paying the bills.......just say'in
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Just a few comments back on topic:
1. ALPA hasn't been found guilty of a thing. That's a criminal term and doesn't even remotely apply here. And no it's not just semantics. They have been found liable for as yet to be determined damages. I can almost guarantee you that the damages award will be far below that 1.2 billion dollar number. 2. The appeals aren't even remotely over. The trial judge denied motions for a new trial and a motion for a verdict, n.o.v. The previous appeal was by the plaintiffs side from an earlier dismissal of the whole darn case. After the damages portion of the trial and when the judgement is finally entered I will bet you my seniority number that there will be appeals by ALPA. And they'll be long ones. And yes ALPA likely has more money than either the plaintiffs or their attorneys. You do, generally, have to put up the judgement amount (more or less) during the appeals process usually in the form of a bond. The only way ALPA won't appeal is if they win hands down at the damages phase, such as a verdict awarding a single dollar (yes juries can do that) or some other absurdly low amount. 3. I'll be retired and dead before this is resolved. And my family has some seriously absurd longevity genes. 4. Any assessment do indeed have to be voted on by the membership. 5. The upstart Delta pilot's "union" has reasons for painting this as gloom & doom, and they're not altogether altruistic. Oh and the Delta pilots have more than 12,000 members. Shooting for 6000 cards is seriously low in a union election. Many of those who signed won't vote for another union. And just as an aside, there's no procedure for decertifying a union under the RLA or by the NMB. It can be done, but it's a rather convoluted process. Been through this 3 times at FedEx, it's one of the few areas my aging, time zone handicapped, sleep deprived brain actually remembers -- well. You can go back to your regular thread creep and discussion about whether FedEx pilots should remain in ALPA now. |
Originally Posted by appDude
(Post 1183432)
If we left ALPA we could regain some self respect as we would no longer be affiliated with the AFL-CIO or SEIU.
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Originally Posted by appDude
(Post 1183432)
If we left ALPA we could regain some self respect as we would no longer be affiliated with the AFL-CIO or SEIU.
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Originally Posted by skeptic
(Post 1183078)
Thank you! Absolutely 100% correct. The whole tired "let's get rid of ALPA" argument is a complete waste of time. The problem is not ALPA (or APA, USAPA, etc.). I have lots of friends at Airways and they can not believe how much of a disaster USAPA has been.
FedEx or Delta management would absolutely love to see ALPA voted out......why do you think that is? Why do you think that is? Carl |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1183326)
Here's the point. ALPA, for all the good it has done in the industry, is not a union. It's an association that happens to be the legally recognized bargaining agent; a move that was done to provide some leverage at it's inception. Each carrier negotiates what it wants. There is no overarching plan for the long term because each carrier wants what it wants.
Now...that worked great in the days of the CAB. If you went on strike, no one could just jump into your markets. Nor could they any other time, the route award process took a long time and could be held up. Not so in the post CAB world. And ALPA, along with the member carriers, refused to come to grips with that and make the necessary changes to adapt to that. So airlines moved into new markets and used that as leverage to cut costs to cover the moves. They came after pilots. And instead of having a union that stood up, they conceded on contracts to stay alive. Why did they concede? Because they had no support. Sure the MCF was great, but at the end of the day it was meaningless if the passenger or cargo customer now had another option in the market. And truth be told, there is nothing a pilot group on strike can do if a passenger or customer chooses to fly on another carrier. Unless there is a way to get the other carrier to stop flying as well. There are two ways to do that. A sympathy strike by the other carriers pilots...impossible because they have a legal agreement and unless there is proof that all the passengers or cargo are from the struck carrier, the pilots are in violation of their own CBA. Second, find a way to stop the struck carrier from moving with scab pilots and other employees who are not a part of the strike. How does that happen? Affiliation, organizing and supporting other airline industry employees. If the airline wants to use and hire scabs, fine...have at it. If the fuelers don't fuel, the mechanics don't turn wrenches, the F/A's won't cross the line, ticket agents and dispatchers don't do their job...the airline stops. If the airline tries to move cargo on another carrier, that airline gets struck by the same union that represents the same folks at the other carrier. So to keep flying, airline #2 tells airline #1 "don't send us your cargo, we won't take it." And what happens is management comes to the table and settles. That can't happen with ALPA. While part of the AFL-CIO, it has always held itself out to be a "cut above" those "other" unions and airline employees. They don't support other unions and as a result, they don't get support. Look at the Amerijet strike. South FL AFL-CIO had members of all unions on the picket lines. There were cops, firefighters, teachers, garbagemen, bus drivers, individual airline MEC's and LEC's...you name it. Fuelers in the Carribbean cut off fuel. Other cargo airlines refused to carry their cargo. Only one national union was missing. ALPA. When the AFL-CIO shows up in force and it's major pilot union doesn't...it sends a message to others. That is the problem created when you refuse to adapt and stand alone. You get no support. How does that relate to the question at hand? Simple. By refusing to focus on true unity and truly standing up for each other, ALPA has allowed itself to become a place where everyone does pretty much what they want and the heck with the other guy. At the same time, they became so focused on $$, they did things that harmed members to improve the bottom line of the Association, not the members. TWA bit back. So will AirTran. Others likely may as well. And ALPA has no understanding of why or how to deal with it, so it falls back on the old mantra of discrediting the malcontents. Which worked in the days where we operated with mailings, letters and whispering campaigns. Times changed with the demise of the CAB and now with electronic media and social networking. And again, ALPA has not. The pilots are more informed. And like Churchill said, "Dictators run to and fro on the backs of tigers they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry." If you want to see how a true airline union works and it's effectiveness, seek out one that represents all types of airline employees and look at how they are doing today. Carl |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1183421)
Why don't you give me multiple examples. After all, Amerijet does make smoking wages. And nobody crossed the picket line, right? APA went to the tables slamming their fists and screaming. That got them far. We all know how well USAPA is doing. And IBT, well they're just burning it up. Republic has been in contract negotiations for 7 years. The AT independent union never got a contract done. I'll be waiting.:D
Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1183962)
OK. UPS = non-ALPA and industry's top wages. Southwest = non-ALPA and industry's top wages. Do you not pay attention?
Carl He wants you to join the Teamsters Carl. He doesn't want you to form an independant union. |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1183962)
OK. UPS = non-ALPA and industry's top wages. Southwest = non-ALPA and industry's top wages. Do you not pay attention?
Carl |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1184080)
Yes, and Amerijet, Republic, GoJet, UsAir and many others have pathetic wages. It's not the answer Carl. But you just keep spinning your wheels. You'll end up some where eventually. :D
Why? Because by doing so, they remove the ability of YOUR management to make the case that "they" are the real industry standard and YOU make too much. Ask any negotiating committee when the last time was their company said they didn't make enough money and were below "industry standard." We'll wait.... Perhaps you feel it's OK to sign concessionary contracts. Apparently the IBT Airline Division doesn't. Perhaps you feel it's OK to walk across your fellow employees picket line at your company because after all, they aren't pilots. Apparently they don't. Maybe you agree that to appease your friends, it's OK to drop the experience requirements in the cockpit. Apparently they don't. And apparently you join in the belief that it's OK to look in disdain on fellow pilots because they don't make as much as you. Or that they must not be "real" pilots because they fly cargo and you fly people. Call yourself a "union" member all you want. That's not what UNION people do. |
Originally Posted by Stratosphere
(Post 1183920)
Oh no you don't.. UPS mechanics yes 6 figures but they have PT mechanics too and are very lean compared to FX mechanics. Ask the UAL MX how they like the reamsters they are the worst they have had yet after IAM and AMFA. If the Reamsters have a good contract it is because the company in question offered it and not because of anything the reamsters did. Old Jimmy Hoffa flew NWA during the mechanics AMFA strike in 2005.
And what they got was a bridge agreement that lifted them up and put them on a higher level that led right into the new negotiations for a merged agreement with the CAL mechanics who make more. So, instead of negotiating off a lower rate, inferior AMFA negotiated deal, they got raises and benefit increases and now are going in at a higher level in the new discussions. Yeah, if I was a mechanic, I'd want AMFA. An office in Colorado, with a part time lobbyist in Washington who works by the hour and represents the US Chamber of Commerce...the very group that pours millions into defeating labor and American workers. No economic analysis staff, no support, but they'll take your money, thank you. They're so good that they got voted out at Horizon and just tried to get back on the property. They lost. Even their own supporters didn't vote for them. |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184110)
Your reply clearly points out why ALPA is not a union. A true union reaches out to the least in a class and craft, reaches out and picks them up. They negotiate for better wages and working conditions to bring them up to an industry standard.
Why? Because by doing so, they remove the ability of YOUR management to make the case that "they" are the real industry standard and YOU make too much. Ask any negotiating committee when the last time was their company said they didn't make enough money and were below "industry standard." We'll wait.... Perhaps you feel it's OK to sign concessionary contracts. Apparently the IBT Airline Division doesn't. Perhaps you feel it's OK to walk across your fellow employees picket line at your company because after all, they aren't pilots. Apparently they don't. Maybe you agree that to appease your friends, it's OK to drop the experience requirements in the cockpit. Apparently they don't. And apparently you join in the belief that it's OK to look in disdain on fellow pilots because they don't make as much as you. Or that they must not be "real" pilots because they fly cargo and you fly people. Call yourself a "union" member all you want. That's not what UNION people do. And I never expressed disdain for any of my fellow pilots because they make less money or fly cargo. Show me a post of mine where I said those things. ALPA represents FedEx pilots. Are their wages below industry standard? Who signed their leading contract first? FedEx or UPS. Yup, FedEx and ALPA put that rung in the ladder. You're welcome IBT. And show me an airline that has all their employee groups represented by the same union. I'm sure mechanics have never gone to work while IBT pilots struck. Oh, and GoJet pilots are IBT. While TranStates pilots tried fighting for better wages, IBT stabbed them in the back by representing GoJet pilots who flew the larger airplanes for well below industry standard wages. So much for not settling. And how much participation did IBT have in lobbying to raise the minimums for commercial pilots, or change the FTDT regs? I bet IBT spent less money and time then ALPA. IBT hasn't convinced me they're a good Pilot union. ALPA's positive actions far outweigh those of IBT. |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1184143)
DALPA openly admits Delta pilot wages are not industry leading. But take a look around, they are near the top. There, you didn't wait long. :D And it's clear IBT would rather drag things out and be stuck on the same crummy wages for years and years. I prefer consistent increases and improvements over contract stagnation. That being said, all airline unions are handcuffed by the Railway Labor Act. It doesn't matter if it's IBT, ALPA, or CAPA.
And I never expressed disdain for any of my fellow pilots because they make less money or fly cargo. Show me a post of mine where I said those things. ALPA represents FedEx pilots. Are their wages below industry standard? Who signed their leading contract first? FedEx or UPS. Yup, FedEx and ALPA put that rung in the ladder. You're welcome IBT. And show me an airline that has all their employee groups represented by the same union. I'm sure mechanics have never gone to work while IBT pilots struck. Oh, and GoJet pilots are IBT. While TranStates pilots tried fighting for better wages, IBT stabbed them in the back by representing GoJet pilots who flew the larger airplanes for well below industry standard wages. So much for not settling. And how much participation did IBT have in lobbying to raise the minimums for commercial pilots, or change the FTDT regs? I bet IBT spent less money and time then ALPA. IBT hasn't convinced me they're a good Pilot union. ALPA's positive actions far outweigh those of IBT. While the rest of the airline unions were standing up to keep the minimum experience requirements high, ALPA was siding with ATA, aviation universities and the industry in favor of lowering them. FAA stood back because they figured that even if CAPA, IBT and others came out for the higher numbers, if ALPA came out with the lower recommendations, they'd have the cover of saying, "well, ALPA says it's OK, so...." IBT, CAPA, APA, IPA, UPS, SWAPA and others spent lots more time and effort on the issue. Now, assuming you are correct and ALPA did all the heavy lifting on FTDT...and I disagree...explain for us all how the long standing mantra "One Level of Safety" became..."Well, for everyone but Cargo and the guys who fly our troops...because they aren't real pilots and don't need the same rest." Everyone else fought...where was ALPA's outrage? Not until FedEx raised cain and talked decert, did ALPA move. And then it was with a joke of a meeting in New Orleans. Moak never intended it to be anything but something to wave at them to say, "Look! We had a MEETING." ALPA became the joke and the point of anger for every friend that pilots have on the Hill on this one. They were seen as an absolute joke compared to what it was in the past. Prater was seen from Day 1 as a buffoon in a suit who liked to glad hand and give neckrubs to the NTSB Administrator (nice)...while he was looking for his next job as a lobbyist in DC. Lee, sadly isn't seen much better. Those aren't my opinions. Those are the opinions of staffers, Congressmen, Senators and lobbyists. They invite ALPA as window dressing, but consider it a paper tiger. Maybe you should be asking your leadership this. Why has ALPA given each of the top four carriers an individual office on the 8th floor at Mass. Avenue and full FPL so they can go lobby the Hill? Is it because they can't do the job...or because they are so scared that a decert by any of them would collapse the house? No one wants to see ALPA fail, me especially. There are too many good people there who really care about pilots. But unless ALPA pulls their head out of the sand and deals with the real, systemic flaws that they keep glossing over...they can't survive as a viable voice. As far as them not showing you anything...I'd challenge you to pick up the phone and call their Division Director and talk directly to him. Don't worry...he talks "pilot"...as they say, "he are one." I'd bet you a paycheck he'll take your call and talk to you at length. You could talk to his Assistant Director...who was a senior Contract Administrator who was one of the six illegally fired by ALPA and won their jobs back (yeah, that one cost ALPA $$ too when they were found guilty and they had to post the award on the doors). Or their senior negotiator...a guy named Dubinsky. Make the call…but don’t worry about the bet. I don’t want you losing the paycheck. |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184212)
Not until FedEx raised cain and talked decert, did ALPA move. And then it was with a joke of a meeting in New Orleans. Moak never intended it to be anything but something to wave at them to say, "Look! We had a MEETING."
Ever heard of this: Bill Text - 112th Congress (2011-2012) - THOMAS (Library of Congress) Is IBT supporting this? ALPA is. It's a little more than just a "feel good" meeting. I know IBT supports this: Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Reauthorization/Express Carrier: Workers at different companies who perform the same tasks in the same industry – such as express delivery drivers – should be treated equally under the law. Unfortunately, they aren’t. In the 111th Congress, the House passed the FAA Reauthorization bill three different times, with the Express Carrier provision – a provision requiring employees of express delivery companies to be covered by the Railway Labor Act, only if they perform airline- specific functions; other jobs at express carriers, like truck drivers and sorters, would be covered by the National Labor Relations Act. Failure by Congress to finalize the FAA bill required another extension to be passed. The Teamsters Union will continue to support inclusion of the Express Carrier provision in the FAA Reauthorization legislation in the 112th Congress. A bill that would have had a very negative effect on FedEx. Thanks Teamsters! Thank God it didn't pass. Again, Are you a pilot? Who do you fly for? What is your officlal relationship with the IBT? Myself: An MD-11 Line Capt. at FDX. I do not now and never have had any elected or leadership positions at ALPA or any other union. I support ALPA as I supported the FPA. I think ALPA is a better deal than an independant union. I see no advantage in being a Teamster. I very much doubt that you are a FedEx pilot. This is only my opinion but I think that the vast majority of FedEx pilots are very much at odds with the IBT's political agenda. An agenda that far exceeds anything related to the careers of airline pilots. Input from FedEx pilots is one of the main reasons that ALPA did not endorse Obama for President. ALPA has a lot of problems but is better than anything out there IMO. Regards, Clutch |
Originally Posted by ClutchCargo
(Post 1184415)
A TOTAL LIE. There was no decert talk at all. None. Period.
Ever heard of this: Bill Text - 112th Congress (2011-2012) - THOMAS (Library of Congress) Is IBT supporting this? ALPA is. It's a little more than just a "feel good" meeting. I know IBT supports this: Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Reauthorization/Express Carrier: Workers at different companies who perform the same tasks in the same industry – such as express delivery drivers – should be treated equally under the law. Unfortunately, they aren’t. In the 111th Congress, the House passed the FAA Reauthorization bill three different times, with the Express Carrier provision – a provision requiring employees of express delivery companies to be covered by the Railway Labor Act, only if they perform airline- specific functions; other jobs at express carriers, like truck drivers and sorters, would be covered by the National Labor Relations Act. Failure by Congress to finalize the FAA bill required another extension to be passed. The Teamsters Union will continue to support inclusion of the Express Carrier provision in the FAA Reauthorization legislation in the 112th Congress. A bill that would have had a very negative effect on FedEx. Thanks Teamsters! Thank God it didn't pass. Again, Are you a pilot? Who do you fly for? What is your officlal relationship with the IBT? Myself: An MD-11 Line Capt. at FDX. I do not now and never have had any elected or leadership positions at ALPA or any other union. I support ALPA as I supported the FPA. I think ALPA is a better deal than an independant union. I see no advantage in being a Teamster. I very much doubt that you are a FedEx pilot. This is only my opinion but I think that the vast majority of FedEx pilots are very much at odds with the IBT's political agenda. An agenda that far exceeds anything related to the careers of airline pilots. Input from FedEx pilots is one of the main reasons that ALPA did not endorse Obama for President. ALPA has a lot of problems but is better than anything out there IMO. Regards, Clutch "Total lie." Wouldn't know that from talking to ALPA staff. But hey, what do they know? "Official relationship?" Nope...I just spend a lot of time with a lot of interesting people in both unions and on the Hill. Lots of relationships, lots of information. Pilot? Yup...I prefer 4 big engines myself. Maybe you ought to take up the suggestion to make the call to. You might be amazed what you find out when you listen and even more amazed when you ask any question you want and get an answer. |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184496)
Are you saying only FedEx pilots are allowed to voice an opinion on cargo here? And what specifically do you know of the IBT Airline Divisions "agenda" for airline pilots beyond what you read in the funnies? Sounds to me like you have no information about it, but have an opinion. Scary.
Nope. Anybody can have an opinion. IBT's radical, left-wing agenda is well known. "Total lie." Wouldn't know that from talking to ALPA staff. But hey, what do they know? I don't know what they know. As a FDX line pilot for over 22 years I know that there was no decert effort. Fellow FDX pilots: feel free to chime in if I'm wrong. "Official relationship?" Nope...I just spend a lot of time with a lot of interesting people in both unions and on the Hill. Lots of relationships, lots of information. Pilot? Yup...I prefer 4 big engines myself. So, who do you fly for? Maybe you ought to take up the suggestion to make the call to. You might be amazed what you find out when you listen and even more amazed when you ask any question you want and get an answer. Regards, Clutch |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1184080)
Yes, and Amerijet, Republic, GoJet, UsAir and many others have pathetic wages.
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1184080)
And I'm certain ALPA represented FedEx created those industry top wages UPS signed on.
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1184080)
And was it not ALPA carriers UAL/DAL/NWA/UsAir that created the level of wages SWA pilots now enjoy.
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1184080)
Riding coat tails Carl. It's not the answer Carl.
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1184080)
But you just keep spinning your wheels. You'll end up some where eventually.
Carl |
Originally Posted by ClutchCargo
(Post 1184415)
Again, Are you a pilot? Who do you fly for? What is your officlal relationship with the IBT?
|
Originally Posted by ClutchCargo
(Post 1184555)
I've been reading their website.
Regards, Clutch Is it the non concessionary contracts they have negotiated for pilots? The organizing drives? The support for pilots whose airlines are in bankruptcy? The fight to stop offshore MRO's that use non FAA licensed or security screened people to fix the planes that we fly? Is it the drive to make everyone understand that we're all in this together? Please...tell us which of those things is bad for and does not represent the best interests of airline pilots. No one is asking you to join them, just to explain why those things are so bad. |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1184690)
He is a former MEC officer from Atlas.
See where some of your guys filed a DFR over your SLI integration with SWA. Sure hope that this time the Herndon guys did a better job of destroying the hard drives and wiping the email files than they did with TWA. Or maybe they didn't.:rolleyes: How's the drive to convince SWAPA pilots that they don't have a "real" union and should join ALPA? |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1183460)
....Omni just came up substantially..... I would not be so quick to classify what happened at OAI as a victory for the pilots. I rather think if you polled them on their feelings about IBT and 1224 you would hesitate to publish the poll results. If you are looking to promote IBT, probably the less said the better about their representation at OAI. That whole deal has a bad smell around it. |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184746)
See where some of your guys filed a DFR over your SLI integration with SWA. Sure hope that this time the Herndon guys did a better job of destroying the hard drives and wiping the email files than they did with TWA. Or maybe they didn't.:rolleyes:
How's the drive to convince SWAPA pilots that they don't have a "real" union and should join ALPA? In house unions are easier to manage than a national union. But it's also easier for nefarious characters to totally infiltrate an in house union. Either of those don't really compare to the IBT. Defending the IBT is really gutsy considering their track record over the last 10-20 years. They've been kicked off of a lot properties for just cause. Too bad you don't feel the need to look back that far. Smart comments aren't going convince us to ignore their checkered past. In short, there's a lot of warts to go around. Often it's inappropriate credit the success or blame failure on the union. The personality of the pilot group very often comes into play. Not to mention the quality of the business model or management team. |
Originally Posted by Gunter
(Post 1184847)
Often it's inappropriate credit the success or blame failure on the union. The personality of the pilot group very often comes into play. Not to mention the quality of the business model or management team.
Unfortunately, I think your wisdom is in the minority. Like our government, it is what we decide to make it. But we have to be a player, not viewing (and complaining) from the sideline. |
Originally Posted by gunter
(Post 1184847)
i don't care how much experience you have working on this stuff, you've clearly lost it. We all get you're very po'd at alpa. Really.
In house unions are easier to manage than a national union. But it's also easier for nefarious characters to totally infiltrate an in house union. Either of those don't really compare to the ibt. Defending the ibt is really gutsy considering their track record over the last 10-20 years. They've been kicked off of a lot properties for just cause. Too bad you don't feel the need to look back that far. Smart comments aren't going convince us to ignore their checkered past. In short, there's a lot of warts to go around. Often it's inappropriate credit the success or blame failure on the union. The personality of the pilot group very often comes into play. Not to mention the quality of the business model or management team. |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184746)
Welcome back! Wondering why you were so silent lately. Guess Bruce has been too busy screwing up the TWA discussions to write your copy.
As for Bruce, the Director of Representation has nothing to do with handling litigation. That's what the Legal Department is for. Yet more proof that despite your claims to the contrary, you really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to ALPA. |
Originally Posted by Gunter
(Post 1184847)
I don't care how much experience you have working on this stuff, you've clearly lost it. We all get you're very PO'd at ALPA. Really.
In house unions are easier to manage than a national union. But it's also easier for nefarious characters to totally infiltrate an in house union. Either of those don't really compare to the IBT. Defending the IBT is really gutsy considering their track record over the last 10-20 years. They've been kicked off of a lot properties for just cause. Too bad you don't feel the need to look back that far. Smart comments aren't going convince us to ignore their checkered past. In short, there's a lot of warts to go around. Often it's inappropriate credit the success or blame failure on the union. The personality of the pilot group very often comes into play. Not to mention the quality of the business model or management team. Maybe you can also tell us about how many concessionary contracts they have signed in that time. Or how much they have shrunk...or grown...in terms of membership. Your argument about what happened 10-20 years ago...under different leadership and using that as your basis for making factual observations makes about as much sense as using last Wednesdays weather for planning a fuel load. And no, I'm not PO'd at ALPA. I wore those wings for over 25 years with great pride. It breaks my heart to see what people with self serving agendas have done to the people of ALPA and the pilots. |
Originally Posted by PCL_128
(Post 1185169)
I don't come around here too much. This place makes FI look like a civil discussion.
As for Bruce, the Director of Representation has nothing to do with handling litigation. That's what the Legal Department is for. Yet more proof that despite your claims to the contrary, you really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to ALPA. Let me guess...you will prevail and SWAPA will beg to join ALPA, right?;) |
Hey mods...Shouldn't this thread be moved to "Union Talk"? There are lots of folks over there that might be interested in this.
|
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184212)
IBT "stabbed" Trans States in the back? You spend too much time listening to York. Ask them to tell you about Prater's visit to management when he begged them to kill off the GoJets pilots and give Trans States the flying.
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184212)
I seem to recall a few UAL furloughees flew there as well...interesting how ALPA folks freely tossed the "scab" word around at an airline that had their own contract and work rules.
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184212)
In essence, what you are saying that unless ANY new airline starts at anything below industry wages, they are back stabbers. Hmmm...when was the last time your group stood up and said "pay our FFD's industry leading rates or we'll shut down?"
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184212)
While the rest of the airline unions were standing up to keep the minimum experience requirements high, ALPA was siding with ATA, aviation universities and the industry in favor of lowering them. FAA stood back because they figured that even if CAPA, IBT and others came out for the higher numbers, if ALPA came out with the lower recommendations, they'd have the cover of saying, "well, ALPA says it's OK, so...." IBT, CAPA, APA, IPA, UPS, SWAPA and others spent lots more time and effort on the issue.
Now, assuming you are correct and ALPA did all the heavy lifting on FTDT...and I disagree...explain for us all how the long standing mantra "One Level of Safety" became..."Well, for everyone but Cargo and the guys who fly our troops...because they aren't real pilots and don't need the same rest." Everyone else fought...where was ALPA's outrage? Not until FedEx raised cain and talked decert, did ALPA move. And then it was with a joke of a meeting in New Orleans. Moak never intended it to be anything but something to wave at them to say, "Look! We had a MEETING." ALPA became the joke and the point of anger for every friend that pilots have on the Hill on this one. They were seen as an absolute joke compared to what it was in the past. Prater was seen from Day 1 as a buffoon in a suit who liked to glad hand and give neckrubs to the NTSB Administrator (nice)...while he was looking for his next job as a lobbyist in DC. Lee, sadly isn't seen much better. Those aren't my opinions. Those are the opinions of staffers, Congressmen, Senators and lobbyists. They invite ALPA as window dressing, but consider it a paper tiger. It's clear you don't truly pay attention to what's going on. ALPA always was, and STILL is, fighting for one level of safety. They're still spending money lobbying for it. I don't know what IBT is doing, but I do know ALPA is doing something.
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184212)
Maybe you should be asking your leadership this. Why has ALPA given each of the top four carriers an individual office on the 8th floor at Mass. Avenue and full FPL so they can go lobby the Hill? Is it because they can't do the job...or because they are so scared that a decert by any of them would collapse the house?
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1184212)
No one wants to see ALPA fail, me especially. There are too many good people there who really care about pilots. But unless ALPA pulls their head out of the sand and deals with the real, systemic flaws that they keep glossing over...they can't survive as a viable voice.
As far as them not showing you anything...I'd challenge you to pick up the phone and call their Division Director and talk directly to him. Don't worry...he talks "pilot"...as they say, "he are one." I'd bet you a paycheck he'll take your call and talk to you at length. You could talk to his Assistant Director...who was a senior Contract Administrator who was one of the six illegally fired by ALPA and won their jobs back (yeah, that one cost ALPA $$ too when they were found guilty and they had to post the award on the doors). Or their senior negotiator...a guy named Dubinsky. Make the call…but don’t worry about the bet. I don’t want you losing the paycheck. |
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