ALPA loses last ditch effort
 

ALPA looses last ditch effort to avoid TWA damages:

Delta Pilots Association - DPA News - TWA Lawsuit Update:eek:

This could be a monumental assessment for all of us (per my DAL buds in the $15-30K range). Imagine what it will be if the DAL pilots leave ALPA. FDX pilots have agency shop which means pay up or be terminated. This might not be good.

Not that it could not be attempted, but any assessment would have to be approved by the entire ALPA membership via a majority vote. That would be a tough nut to crack, and I certainly would not vote to approve a TWA assessment. I think the DPA is probably using this as a high vis issue to help gain cards, not an entirely stupid idea but it is a little of the sky is falling so you better get out while you can.

I would bet a large sum of coin that if the Board even attempted a vote for a large assessment that the first think that would happen at Purple is a de-certification vote. We already pay enough, ALPA will have to find another way to deal with TWA, should they actually have to pay up. IMHO

Bankruptcy.

And it's "lose."

'loses', actually...:D

I read about this about a year ago. Has anyone seen a message line from the FedEx MEC explaining this to us? Explaining how much this might cost us? Explaining why we should pay for ALPA national's screw up?

I have talked about it with other crewmembers, and they look at me like they have never even heard about it.

If I am not mistaken, and if I am, someone will surely correct me, ALPA threw the TWA pilots under the bus BEFORE FedEx joined ALPA. IF that is true, why should I pay for something ALPA national did BEFORE we joined them.

If this goes through, and we are told we need to "do the right thing", and pay up for national's mistakes, I will be the first to sign a petition to decertify ALPA at FedEx!

Please consider the source of this info. ALPA has not yet been assessed for any damages, and the $1.2 billion "estimate" from the Delta group is pure BS. Also, ALPA has well above $90 million in insurance coverage for this litigation. It is unlikely that any ALPA member will be assessed to pay any TWA damages. The Delta group is just using this as a scare tactic in their campaign.

Nevermind. Are they getting any traction to form their own union?

What spurred them on? The NWA merger?

How about you get the MEC to come out with a statement that says that no FedEx pilot is going to be forced to pay an assessment for this debacle? How about you get them to publicly go on record and sign said statement?

$90 million is nothing on a $1 billion tab. Also, another airline is starting up the same type of lawsuit. How much you wanna bet ALPA loses that one as well?

How much do you want to bet that even if an award is given, this will be dragged out for many years to come. ALPA can make this take 10+ years. Appeals court, Supreme Court, etc. Look at the Ford Dealerships who sued Ford for overcharging them for trucks. That lawsuit was filed 10 years ago, and it's STILL not over. I guarantee you ALPA has deeper pockets.

4500 cards; they want about 6000 to trigger the vote.

From the ALPA Constitution regarding assessments: "...such assessments are approved by a majority of the valid ballots returned by the Active members in good standing...". In other words, we have to vote to assess ourselves. The danger is that your airline could vote no and everyone else vote yes.

RJDC called.

They want their apocalyptic threats back.

No appeal. They already lost that too. This was the last chance and the judge killed it. Read it.

The last message from ALPA regarding this was dated March 13th:

------------------------

Brady v. ALPA

This lawsuit arose out of American’s purchase of TWA assets when TWA was in bankruptcy and facing the real possibility of going out of business. The TWA MEC was very supportive of the transaction because it meant good jobs at a strong carrier for the pilots. The MEC voted to waive the pilots’ contractual right to seniority arbitration; they agreed to this waiver because it was demanded by American as a condition for going forward with the transaction. The MEC received advice from ALPA advisors and independent advisors to waive the right to seniority arbitration in order to ensure that they got the jobs available at American.*

The lawsuit was filed in 2002 and went to trial in June of this year. It took so long to get to this point for several reasons. First, the lawsuit was dismissed by the district court on statute of limitations grounds and then returned to the district court when the court of appeals reversed the dismissal. Second, the plaintiffs hired and fired several sets of lawyers. Third, there was delay caused by dissension among the plaintiffs which resulted in Bud Bensel being removed as a named plaintiff.

The trial lasted about six weeks and a verdict was issued on July 13. The jury found that: (1) ALPA had violated its duty of fair representation; (2) As a result of this violation, “some” TWA pilots were harmed in an unspecified way.

The verdict is one step of a long legal process that has a long way to go. ALPA’s lawyers will be filing a motion to overturn the verdict and, probably, several other motions. They believe that the verdict is not supported by the evidence and is contrary to the applicable law.

There has been no process for determination of damages. Any such process would not even start until after ALPA’s motions are ruled upon. At that time, the judge would order a period of discovery (document production and depositions) to be followed by another trial with respect to the plaintiffs’ damage claims. At that proceeding the issues to be determined would include whether and to what extent damages may be ordered and for whom. Some are claiming that the damages will be “enormous.” There is no basis for this assertion. Any dollar amounts or descriptions of the amount of damages are pure, unsupported speculation.

At the conclusion of the damages trial, ALPA would have the right to appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. There is also the possibility of settlement discussions which could further delay or conclude the legal process.

Currently, ALPA has agreed to enter into mediation for a possible settlement. This is simply a “next step” in the process. As with any legal proceedings, a settlement that may be reached through mediation may be the best possible solution for both parties. It does not mean an agreement is pending or even expected.

If ALPA were required to cover damages, it has substantial insurance coverage precisely for this type of situation. There are assertions out there that are dead wrong when they say that ALPA’s insurance would not apply to this case.

ALPA has never assessed its membership to pay for litigation, awards, verdicts, or settlements. There is no reason to assume that it would do so in this case.

Your speaking about the New Jersey court.

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Oh yeah, that makes me feel much better.:rolleyes:

It sounds like lawyer talk to me, and if it came from ALPA's (beaten again) lawyers, it doesn't mean much.

So when the judge says "cough up the money", where will ALPA get it? As they are fond of saying, "we are ALPA", I'll bet "we" will have to pay through the nose. If the Delta pilots leave ALPA, it will be time for the FedEx pilots to leave as well; hopefully, before we have to pay for national's mistakes.

Love the avatar! I'm a huge fan.

If ALPA was forced to pay $2B in damages I'm sure they'd declare bankruptcy, then lose most of their assets, but I don't see $30,000 assessments on each ALPA member.

Gotta love how the ALPA apologists like Johnso29 here view the world. ALPA loses a jury trial of a Duty to Fairly Represent lawsuit. Judge here's all motions from ALPA to throw out verdict, etc., and he DENIES them all. But does an ALPA apologist think for even a moment to do the right thing when shown to be guilty in a court of law? Not a chance. You talk about how you've got the deeper pockets and how you'll drag this out for 10+ years.

ALPA doesn't understand that they keep getting themselves into these debacles by their failure of just plain doing the right thing. No matter how much they justified in their own minds how cool it would be to get the pilots of American Airlines to return to ALPA, you just can't do it by stabbing the pilots you currently represent (TWA pilots) in the back. Thus, ALPA still struggles with something most of us should learn in kindergarten...DO THE RIGHT THING.

Carl

They may just try to drag this out until they also lose the DFR lawsuit brought by the AirTran pilots, then declare bankruptcy to discharge them both.

Carl

"Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did.

"But you can't hold a whole "union "responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole "union" system? And if the whole "union" system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!"

Makes sense. If it gets far enough, I wonder what damages would be awarded, or what settlement would be made.

I wasn't found guilty, but nice spin Carl. Just like how DPA spins an undetermined award for damages into a massive $2 billion bill for its members. I suppose using scare tactics based on speculation is "just plain doing the right thing"

That is hilarious! 100 awesomeness points to you for the Animal House reference.

Carl

The source of the 1.2 billion number was the judge who told ALPA that if they wanted to appeal the case, they'd have to post what he felt was the potential MINIMUM award. They put an attorney in charge whose arrogance cost ALPA dearly elsewhere and they are now in the corner with no way out.


ALPA's insurance; according to staff, may...may...cover the loss. It is not yet known if they will pay out. If they do...or if they don't...the issue going forward will be if ALPA can get any underwriter to insure them again. With the TWA loss, another at UAL (and one pending), and the potential at AirTran...IF they can get insurance, it will beat an astronomical rate.


Don't blame DPA for telling folks the facts. They got shafted by Prater and have the right to be very wary of the future.

Except DPA is leaving out facts. They're trying to scare Delta Pilots into ditching ALPA. DPA implies that ALPA is allowed to cover any potential damages by simply taking money out of ALPA members checks. It doesn't work that way.

They don't have any substantial assets to lose. Most have already been sold off. Mass. Avenue was sold (all but the 8th Floor) to fund the MCF. Prater gave up half of it for cash to pay bills. And even if Herndon was owned, or any other properties out there, the market value is lousy.

Time to boot ALPA and get a Real Union to represent FedEx pilots ........... I have voted against every ALPA sponsored contract, would be glad to see them gone .............

Haven't we been through this before?

Perhaps you'd be happier at a non ALPA Cargo carrier? Such as Centurion, Kalitta, National, or Southern to name a few. They seem to have superior pay, benefits, and work rules. :D

How about Evergreen? 1999 CBA, amendedable in 2005, joined ALPA in 2007. They are still under their 1999 CBA, and the only thing is they have lost 1.95% in pay since 2007 to now (2012) and have nothing to show for it! Oh, they did get one TA which was basically an extension of the current contract for another two years. Thanks ALPA!

YES! YES! Let's bring back the FPA. Or better yet, the FAB! Why even have a "third party" get in between us and management? How'd you vote on the PC negotiated (dictated) FPA contract of 1997? How'd you vote on the 1999 (articles of surrender) contract? Those were both brilliant pieces of work.

It's been said before: It's not the initials on the letterhead. It's the backbone of the pilot group that determines the outcome. Unforunately, we have been sadly lacking that in most cases.

Regards,
Clutch

"It's not the initials on the letterhead. It's the backbone of the pilot group that determines the outcome. Unforunately, we have been sadly lacking that in most cases."



Tru Dat!

Or maybe Atlas? Who in their merged CBA saw a 34% increase for Polar crews and 27% for Atlas to come to parity. Who have a growing carrier and in 2011 handed out profit sharing checks based on 18.5% of W-2. The fact is each of them is under Section 6 and will do exponentially better percentage and work rules wise than any contract negotiated by ALPA for a few years now.

Odd thing. It also seems all these ALPA carriers are talking decert. How's organizing been working for ALPA lately? JetBlue? American? USAirways? Sky West? Multiple failures and millions lost on organizing drives. Wonder what the common thread was?

And then Prater "poached" North American. His own people said it would cost over $18,000 a month to represent them with ZERO financial gain. Wonder how much support they'll get in bankruptcy.

Why would FedEx leave? Could it be over the fact that ALPA dismissed their concerns over Age 65? Maybe that when ALPA needed to replace the VP-Finance because they had lost to USAPA and Chris had to step down, instead of electing an emminently qualified financial guy from FedEx, Prater pushed Randy Helling...who had zero financial experience, save picking up the bar tab.

Or could it be both of those things and the realization that no matter WHAT FedEx does, they will always be looked down upon as a non legacy and because cargo pilots aren't "real pilots" because "real pilots" fly people?

Prater was not good for the majority of the ALPA membership.

If I recall correctly, he was voted in when many ALPA members were on furlough and could not participate.

We need to remember his agenda and stand guard against a return to that type of leadership.

Independent Pilots Association, we do not belong in ALPA.

What would constitute a "real union"? This is not flamebait im asking a serious question.

Thank you! Absolutely 100% correct. The whole tired "let's get rid of ALPA" argument is a complete waste of time. The problem is not ALPA (or APA, USAPA, etc.). I have lots of friends at Airways and they can not believe how much of a disaster USAPA has been.

FedEx or Delta management would absolutely love to see ALPA voted out......why do you think that is?