Decertify ALPA
 

What has ALPA done for you lately?

That is a question we all should be asking ourselves? All I have ever seen is no support, no improvement to our careers, and no unity.

I believe it has come time for all regionals to decertify from ALPA.

Thoughts?

And what has management done for you? You do realize the majors ALPA dues fund the regionals ALPA budget right? I agree they haven't been the greatest but the alternative is much worse unfortunately.

What do you have in mind to provide us just a 1/4 of the protections/ work rules they provide?

Well it's like this... who puts more honey into the ALPA pot?
A: Mainline APLA Carriers, or
B: Their regional affiliates

It's a MASSIVE conflict of interest IMHO. And also I'm sure the case could be made for dereliction of duty or whatever you'd call it if ALPA won a huge CBA for a regional carrier at the detriment of the mainline partner.
I think it would be best if there was a sister branch of ALPA that was for regional carriers only, with management completely different from National. THat was we could have a more fair shake when going to the table.

It would behoove us to have a Regional Airline Pilots Assoc. that purchased certain services from ALPA National... many other unions do this, Southwest, Airways, American... all of their inhouse unions purchase services from ALPA National... insurance, economic analysis, etc...

Good luck. Regional airlines get a free ride. You'll never get 1/4th of what ALPA can do. Aeromedical, insurance programs, safety, accident investigations, veterans affairs etc..... Good luck getting all that from another association at 1.95 of your check......

You all need to remember you vote in status reps and thus your MEC. You selected these individuals. Your individual property is only as strong as those who YOU put in place.

Well we've all seen what Teamsters has done for GoJet and RAH. Or Great Lakes and Silver Wings.

At least someone gets it.

I would call it Regional Airline Pilot Employees.

There are a few differences you forgot. ALPA takes all of your dues money. IBT only gets .22% from each local...the rest is kept locally.

Each IBT group negotiates their own contract with assistance...if requested...from the International. At GoJet, they are using that assistance now in their negotiations. At RAH, they refused and have gone it alone with an outside law firm they wanted...and the results are showing.

At IBT, it's about local members deciding how to proceed. With ALPA, it's "take the deal because it's the best you'll get...or we'll pull your funding."

Last I checked your local ALPA dollars aren't ever getting pulled. Most regional properties get money, from a national fund, to fund section 6 discussions. Anyways I'd encourage you to fact check before quoting inaccurate information.

How's IBTs aeromedical department? Their accident investigation department? Safety? Veterans Affairs? Fatigue risk management? ASAP? Should I keep going?

So the point is, infrastructure that ALPA has and services provided are valuable. The question now is, how do the regional airlines create a similar infrastructure without being handcuffed to an organization with conflict of interest?

I don't have an answer for that.

They cannot pull funding. The finding for each MEC and each LEC is set by one formula that is used for all of them.

Anyway, call the union bananas for all I care. It will still be made up of the same people who voted in those who are in office now.

Not even close to being correct.

You're not going to. Not with 1.95 of a regional pilots salary. Even if you got every US regional. Point still remains regardless of Union Affiliate your individual property is only as strong as those whom you elected to represent you. If you don't like that vote better or offer your time to volunteer.

As someone who worked for rah for almost a decade let me tell you, you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea what we went thru and what lack of support ibt offered. They are a truckers union that's all!!!

Been Tried Before
 

During the mid and late 1970's, the Air Line Pilots Association thought that concept would be a good one. They formed the Union of Professional Airmen (UPA), which was for the "commuters", as they were called then (regional carriers). They were a separate organization with the help of ALPA national for legal assistance, contract negotiations, advice, etc.

The first real "test" was a strike at Rio Airways (TX) which proved to be very costly in that Rio held off the strike efforts for over a year and finally UPA capitulated. Although very expensive, the company "won" and thereafter the financials simply didn't make sense to continue as a separate entity. The history of UPA after that is very short.

Today, it makes even less sense. Look at what the majors pour into the coffers of the regional carriers and you'll answer your own question.

G'Luck Mates:)

Yes, but please stop when you get to Pay, Schedule, and Benefits. Oh, ALPA and IBT don't deal with those? I'll take a pass...thanks!

A truckers union...sounds like you have all the answers and none of the facts. Like the Division is run by a pilot, the negotiators are pilots and the Assistant Director was an ALPA contract administrator.

Why don't you tell us all why you let CM refuse any assistance, preferring to go with a lawyer outside the IBT who bills you up the wazoo and delivers squat? Or why you all refused any assistance from the Economics folks?

Problem for you is that there are some of us who know EXACTLY what you were offered...and refused. You had the opportunity to go with Local 1224 and have even MORE support after 747 was shut down, but you turned it down and demanded your own Local. Don't blame others for your failings.

And your statement is based on???

Wow. That does me a lot of good when IBT negotiates some of the worst contracts in the industry. GoJet & RAH to name a few. Go IBT 357. Only 7 years past the amendable date. GoJet has one of the worst contracts in the industry. The Kalitta contract is terrible. Way to go!

Facts. My statement is based on facts. How about yours? Each ALPA airline negotiates their own contract. That's why each airline elects it's own negotiating committee. ALPA National doesn't negotiate contracts for anyone.

Cute, but delusional. Yes, every ALPA property has their own negotiating committee...so does every IBT unit. The difference is that when it comes to nut crunching, ALPA national calls the shots and tells the committee and MEC, "this is the best you're gonna get, so take it or we're pulling the funding for your committee and MEC." The last decent department leader they had was Seth Rosen; who understood how to stand up...and he departed the fix years ago. Between Bruce York and John Cohen, they have decimated the place.

IBT Locals control their own money and the International only comes in IF they are invited. They don't control local negotiations, the local NC does. That's why RAH has the contract they have and why they are still a mess...because the Local Pres and the outside law firm he retained to negotiate have buggered it. When Local 747 was shut down...and part of the problem was the RAH officials and what they were doing...RAH was offered IBT 's help to get a contract done. They refused and demanded their own local to do thier own thing. They got what they wanted. The International has offered to help more than once and been told "no thanks, we got it."

Kalitta is in Section 6. GoJets the same. Go ask your ALPA heroes who ever had a kick butt first CBA. Go look at first contracts they negotiated. Either $$ or work rules, one or the other and pretty weak. Second and sucessive contracts are where you close the loopholes and make progress. Unless you have someone like ALPA who has a president that goes to a company and says, "shut down your other carrier and we'll cut you a deal on the new CBA for your ALPA property..." like they did with the CEO of TranStates and GoJet. Nice...you have furloughed ALPA guys who can't find jobs with ALPA carriers flying for GoJets (so much for solidarity), and you're going to gut them again. And when the CEO says "no" you start calling the GoJet guys scabs. A scab crosses a picket line.

Have you ever walked a picket line at your airline?

You are incorrect again. If a respective MEC doesn't control it's own money, then how is it that DALPA is returning dues $$$ to it's pilot group while other pilot groups aren't receiving dues refunds? How do they fund FPL to reps, or those who attend things such as Pilot 2 Pilot training? And National does not control negotiations. If that were true, then we wouldn't need NCs, would we? And is it National who elects to send a TA to MEMRAT? Nope.

Wow. So International CAN'T intervene, & as a result the profession suffers. Well that's fantastic representation. And a heck of a way to improve the profession. Seven PLUS years past the amendable date for RAH!!!

Kalitta has been in Sec 6 for over 3 years. Their pay is abysmal. 19 years to get to $173 as a 747 CA! And GoJet. Their pay AND work rules are terrible. Not one, but both. 50% DH pay. No trip rigs. No duty rigs. No cancellation pay. No min day guarantee. Along with some of the lowest CRJ700 pay in the industry. So I guess that still makes my "ALPA heroes" better then IBT.

And I'm well aware of the definition of scab. Although you're painting with a very broad brush when it comes to your accusations that all ALPA members are calling GoJet pilots scabs. To be true, you'd need to have proof. Which you certainly don't. You might want to retract that statement, because it's making you look very bad.

For the duration that I've been employed the opportunity has never come about at my airline. But to display the UNITY of ALPA, I did walk the picket line to show my support for Spirit pilots.

Can you say "trade unionism?

So you can't answer my question, because you're wrong. Delta ALPA is refunding dues money to it's own pilot group. Clearly National controls all the money.


Yeah? So first you said they CAN'T intervene unless invited, & now you're changing your tune.

Nice deflection BTW. You can't defend the dysfunction, so you try to change the subject. If IBT is so much better, why haven't they worked out a national contract?

A 12 yr 767-300 CA makes $213. A 12 yr 767-400 CA makes $241. A 12 yr 747-400 CA makes $255.


You didn't say "a few" either. Am I to assume you meant otherwise? If you don't specify that it's a small amount, then it's safe to say you're accusing all of doing so.



Can't speak to that. Don't know enough about it.

What do you mean you don't know enough about it? Pilots are pilots. A strike is a strike. A picket line is a picket line. You show up and show support, regardless of the union. And if your leadership doesn't get onboard, you demand an answer why...and it better be REALLY good. Or are you saying some pilots are better than others?

I guess that's the difference. Some folks look beyond the uniform to the issue. Some look at the uniform and say "not my problem."

I NEVER said a portion of my dues don't go to National. And that's not what we're debating. YOU said money isn't controlled on a local level. I proved you wrong.


Oh yes, 7 years past the amendable date is fantastic improvements. And GoJet is really hitting it out of the park. Maybe you saw what Comair made? ASA? ExpressJet? Air Wisconsin? And stop putting words in my mouth. That's the SECOND time you've done it. I NEVER called GoJet pilots scabs, & I NEVER called Regional pilots substandard citizens. There you go with that broad brush again.


Well, you heard him wrong. Or he didn't know his own pay rate. On 7/1/2012 a 12 yr 767-300ER CA made $196.52. Starting 1/1/2013 his rate jumped to $213.22. Don't believe me? Then see for yourself.

Delta Air Lines | AirlinePilotCentral.com


So now you're denying what you said?

I would think the phrase "I don't know enough about that." would be fairly self explanatory. And there ya go again putting words in my mouth. Can you quote where I stated some pilots are better then others? I didn't think so.

Well, it's clear IBT has failed to do that in many instances. As has USAPA.

Let's talk about the last one while we're at it. How's the contract going for Evergreen? 747-400's...what's the pay there? Top of the scale? How about North American? In bankruptcy, ALPA walked away from them. That was after the IBT Airline Division Director refused to agree to a whipsaw contract there (and ATI) and the ALPA President said "come on over and I'll sign it!" Gee, a union President AGREEING TO a contract that whipsaws pilot groups. Radical!

How about Atlas? For over 5 years they got jerked around on trying...they begged for ALPA to end the stupidity at the ExBd and get a deal done. The President refused...and because of that, they left on their own and went to IBT. How's their contract? And their profit sharing? I believe it was about 18% of W-2 last year.

ALPA could have kept Atlas. Growing airline and a hell of a lot more financially stable than most...meaning a LOT of dues revenue. They were told that. Told what the growth would be. And every time they were told what needed to be done, ALPA did the opposite.

So at the end, we're back to square 1. ALPA lost carriers, and raided others. They begged USAPA to come back and USAPA isn't remotely interested. Same with SWAPA (btw...how's that DFR suit by AirTran going?) They screwed the TWA pilots and then screwed themselves in the lawsuit. Same with the one by the senior UAL pilots.

What really stinks is that I love a lot of the staff. Hard working, focused on taking care of pilots. But the management of the place has become a mirror image of the very thing we all fought for years in airline managements. And that stinks.

How long will we continue to go in circles with this? I never denied that a portion of my dues went to National.


Delta has been in operation for 80+ years. So I have no idea. Apples to oranges though. The industry was regulated, & a in a much different environment. Plenty of better paid CRJ700 operators were in existence when GoJet started. Teamsters accepted GoJet pilots with open arms, clearly condoning the knife they stuck right in the backs of TSA pilots. Unity indeed.

I didn't shut Comair down. I'm a line pilot. I have no input in that decision. Does IBT control those things? To answer your other question, it's not a pilot group represented by IBT. Air Wisconsin likely leads the 50 seat race, with ASA taking the 70/90 seat pay.


Here's what you said:

And where's your proof of FACT that regional pilots are looked down upon? Once again, you're painting with a broad brush. I have NEVER seen a DAL CA deny a jumpseat to ANY regional pilot. EVER. In FACT, every single one I have flown with has been more then accomodating. Just last week I witnessed a DAL pilot take the flight attendant jumpseat, so that a regional pilot could get in the cockpit jumpseat. I myself have given up a jumpseat to a regional pilot because I had one reserved on the later flight. I've watched DAL Captains put THEIR bag in a overhead, so that a regional guy could keep his bag in the flight deck because he was two legging it and needed to bolt once we were chocked. Looked down upon indeed. :rolleyes:


I noticed you confidently skipped over this item.

Well, you heard him wrong. Or he didn't know his own pay rate. On 7/1/2012 a 12 yr 767-300ER CA made $196.52. Starting 1/1/2013 his rate jumped to $213.22. Don't believe me? Then see for yourself.

Delta Air Lines | AirlinePilotCentral.com



Evergreen? You mean that terrible cargo operator that ALPA is working on saving? The one with the owner whom is more concerned with building water parks?

Atlas has a decent contract. So what is that for IBT? One?

That's a shame.

ALPA begged USAPA to come back? I'm sure they did since USAPA is nothing more then a dysfunctional disaster that is anchoring the profession down. Clearly USAPA is doing outstanding on their own. $86 an hour MAX for a A320 FO. A law firm that bled them so bad that they had to fire them. Legacy FOs making more then their CAs. Millions of dollars lost in wages and retirement because they can't get their act together. Yes. OUTSTANDING work!

As to the lawsuits you mentioned, it's simply people that are money grabbing. They elected reps, agreed to a process, and then refused to accept what they agreed to. Didn't get what they wanted, so they're taking their toys and going home. It's never good enough for some people.

I'm sure IBT is completely rid of corrupt people, and encounters zero conflict and disagreement.

A guy who votes to throw the rest of his industry under the bus for self benefit gives a thumbs up to a sugar baby and an organization with a history of reckless irresponsibility in the conduct of their purpose.

The laugh of the day, this is. ALPA ain't no sugar mama. :cool:

The other issues aside: It is a FACT that GoJet's current Captain pay rates are at industry standard or better. FO rates on average are below industry standard but in 2007 no one expected to be an FO for more than 2 years. Some work rules are substandard but compare apples to apples: this contract was ratified when there were less than 15 A/C on property and barely over 100 pilots on a first CBA iteration. Comparing this contract to a COMAIR or Eagle or many others is not apples to apples and COMAIR is gone and Eagle's future is uncertain.

Well, considering the pay CUTS others have recently taken, that's not surprising. And those rates were determined by comparing peers rates. So because GoJet, RAH, & the likes were so low, others had to come down in rates to remain competitive.

Also, expectations of growth or advancement is not an excuse for poor FO rates. Especially when you work for HK.

I always wondered what would have happened if the American Eagle pilots would have gone to AMR with an offer to fly those jets for say 75% of current American salaries. Then gone home, put their feet up and wait for the calls from the Allied group. It still would have been a pay raise, better working conditions and hiring policy at American has always been tilted towards college educated or military trained officer pilots. Why support a group that will not support you?