C57 LAX Rep Recall Website
 

And there it is - meeting September 30th. They’re running out the clock, further displaying that this is all about one thing - getting Insler elected ALPA president at the BOD in October. Even if they get recalled at that meeting, it still has to go to a council-wide vote which won’t be completed until after the BOD, thus preserving their ability to lobby and vote for Todd.

Don’t get me wrong, I am very dissatisfied with current leadership, but what motivation do the reps have to do that? Do you think Todd is skipping them envelopes of cash or something? I just don’t really buy it. I think they just like their jobs and have gotten too close to the TA.

Its just people who want to take over the MEC for personal gain so they blame everything the current MEC is doing for personal gain.

Be extremely wary of who you select to be your next LEC reps. If they were people calling for ouster, it means they were using this TA failure as an opportunity to take power. They are the ones we need to be worried about. I won’t vote for anyone that was beating the drums of recall.

They got sucked into MEC & ALPA National politics. They have been in a bubble for the last several years. They are so disconnected from the pilot group. Now a sleeping giant has been awaken (UAL pilot group) and they are closing ranks. It’s somewhat human nature defense mechanism that happens in MEC politics.

Who's running this effort and why are they concurrently soliciting a recall effort for Council 34.

All the content written by "Admin" behind a private domain registered by GoDaddy? Council business should be conducted by council members (IMO in the union hall) not by anonymous internet cowards.

Like the PRO letter?

So you agree that union members should be accountable for their work, or is it just equivocation for being anonymous cowards?

But they’ll still be gone.

Good riddance.

Are you kidding me? How could any pilot not want the current LEC / MEC, reps recalled, with what they have done. Are we ever going to fight for what we deserve. We need
to get rid of any rep who voted against the pilots interests and for this abomination of a TA. There is no going forward without removing these guys and using this opportunity
to fight for at least a reasonable contract.

You sound like you don't feel we have a problem. I believe that speaks volumes about you.

Until Todd gives them jobs at national. Then they can screw the entire industry instead of just the United pilots. Oh wait - they already did they with the Tumi TA.

Sorry, but there are thousands of Pilots out here who see this TA cycle for what it is and will demand ouster. I couldn’t care less about the two political sides fighting for power here, but it would be hard to vote for anyone who wasn’t demanding the ouster of the current cadre.

William F. Buckley once said:

I would suggest the UA pilot group is similarly situated. The MEC members who voted for the TA have certainly demonstrated their own incompetence and/or malfeasance. Tossing darts at a seniority list could scarcely produce a less worthwhile group.

Latest from C57
 

I can't believe I'm saying this, but the current s--t show just keeps getting worse. Apparently a considerable number of you are narcissists! Well...according to the Council 57 officers:

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Council 57 LEC Update Aug. 14 -- MEC Special Meeting

Historical Perspective: How To Learn From Past Pattern Bargaining Success

Brothers and Sisters of Council 57,

MEC Special Meeting

Tomorrow, the MEC will be meeting in special session in order to review the polling and survey results gathered over the last few weeks. Once those results are analyzed and discussed, the MEC will adjust the priorities for continued negotiations with the company.

Many members have asked whether the details of the random poll or the on-line survey will be made public. This will never happen! As much as everyone would like to know, results of polling data have always been closely held by the MEC. The reason is simple: That data was gathered on behalf of the MEC -- your elected representatives -- so that they can direct future negotiations based on your expectations. Releasing -- or leaking -- that data only serves to give the Company added insight into the mood and expectations of the pilots. Think of a poker game where your opponent can see your cards... It wouldn't be much of a negotiation if the other side knows everything you know!
Historical Perspective

Below you will find a perspective from Captain Jerome Mestman, a long-time member of Council 57 and the LEC Communications Chair from 2012 to 2015, who served during the Contract Extension negotiation in 2015. We believe his comments provide a good review of the negotiating climate during that time, and can provide an important perspective for the environment we find ourselves in today. We appreciate him taking the time.

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How to Learn from Past Pattern Bargaining Success

By Captain Jerome Mestman, Council 57

As we ponder the travails of our current contract situation, I can't help but think back to 2015 and how much today resembles that period, at least in terms of pattern bargaining. We tend to look back at the contractual gains we've made since 2012 with a sense of inevitability, much the same way we look back as if victory in WW2 was inevitable, but nothing was a foregone conclusion at the time. I think the events in airline labor relations in 2015-2016 can provide a great tutorial as to the benefits of effective pattern bargaining.
Pattern bargaining, the game of contractual leap frog, is most effective when all parties are lifting up together, each only requiring little strength to lift a heavy object. Pattern bargaining fails when people expect one party to do the heavy lifting all alone. Effective pattern bargaining means no single union needs to be the "tough guy."

Some may look back at the Contract Extension of 2015 as a foregone conclusion with a great outcome, but it was hardly a sure thing. When put out for membership ratification, the extension passed with a 79 percent approval, but few pilots realize that the Extension TA barely made it out of the MEC by a vote of 11 to 8. Yep, with a two vote swing the pilots would never have a chance to vote on what ended up being arguably the greatest wealth transfer to the pilots in the last 30 years, or longer!
While Contract 2000 and Contract 2012 had larger increases, both of those contracts followed two significant concessionary pay structures: Respectively, the Employee Stock Ownership Plan of the 1990s and the bankruptcies of both legacy United and legacy Continental. The pay increases negotiated in 2015 were a pure gain on the Contract 2012 pay scale.

To illustrate the gains realized in the 2015 Contract Extension: In the Fall of 2015, a 12-year United 737 captain earned $212 per hour. By January 2019, just three and a half years later, that same United captain was earning $282 per hour. By comparison, the Consumer Price Index jumped 7.5 percent during those three years while pilot wages grew by 7.5 percent each year! In other words: While overall prices increased 7.5 percent, pilot wages increased 33.3 percent! (For those arguing today that our wages should be tied to inflation simply because we've have one year of relatively high inflation, I suggest they look at more data than one single bad year!)

How Did We Achieve Such Wage Gains?

In the fall of 2015, Delta pilots were the next pilot group on the negotiating block. The good news for Delta pilots was that its airline was the most profitable airline in the industry. If any labor group were going to extract contractual gains, it would be the labor group working for the most profitable airline, right? The bad news was that the Delta pilots were already the highest paid commercial pilots in the industry; there was no one with whom to play contractual leap frog. Delta management could easily have offered its pilots annual wage increases of 2 percent (actually beating the inflation rate). If the pilots would have voted it down, management could have turned to the National Mediation Board (NMB) and said: We're offering our pilots the highest wages in the industry and they still reject it! We don't know what they want! At that point, the NMB could have turned to the Delta MEC and ask: Well... ?

Under the Railway Labor Act, management has a significant advantage in that labor contracts don't expire outright, they merely become amendable. Workers can't withhold services at the amendable date; the parties must first be released for self-help by the NMB before workers can strike. In 2015, had the United pilots turned down the contract extension (many pilots argued for the gains and glory of a full Section 6 negotiation), it could have resulted in the traditional stalemate with us working through 2019 under a pay scale that topped out in 2017. ($224 per hour for the 737 captain above). The result: Had either the UAL or DAL pilots tried to do the heavy lifting alone, pilot wages could have stagnated for years.

But, that's not what happened!

When the 2015 Contract Extension was approved, many pilots grumbled that the snap-up clause meant the United pilots were riding the coattails of those tough Delta pilots who were actually doing the hard work. The key aspect of the 2015 Extension was that the United pilots raised the wage bar -- substantially -- for the Delta pilots to jump over in the leap frog game. There was little chance Delta was going to offer its pilots the wages it did had United not spiked the punchbowl with the additional 13 percent pay raise in the Extension. Once Delta shot above our wage levels, we simply snapped up to the new Delta pay rates.

In a classic success of pattern bargaining, both labor groups did some moderate lifting where both made significant gains due to the efforts of the other group. The end result: Wages for both the DAL and UAL pilots kept moving; there was no 3-year dead zone of zero wage growth.

2022 vs 2015

I think 2022 is eerily similar to 2015 in that the United and Delta pilots are leading the industry in overall contract value. If we each work independently, trying to do the heavy lifting alone (i.e., push for annual wage increases of 10 percent), we could easily end up in stalled negotiations with zero wage gains for years. Remember, it's called a negotiation and not a "demand" for a reason. Just because pilots want something at the negotiating table doesn't mean the company has to give in - it can easily drag things out for 2 to 3 years. So, when I hear "populist" grandstanding as some voices talk tough as if they can unilaterally force the company to back up a dump truck full of cash for us to gorge on, it gives me pause. The glory of hitting a grand slam in Game 7 of the World Series may seem appealing, but we all know the likelihood of that actually happening. Hitting five doubles in a row in Game 5 may not get the same headlines, but it scores just as many runs and is as effective at achieving the overall goal.

When it comes to the current negotiation, I'm more concerned about winning... however boring it may appear. I'm very, very wary of so-called leaders who promise us glory based on nothing more than empty rhetoric that reflects their own egomania and thirst for power. These narcissists have failed us before; just ask a United pilot who was around during the first two years of the merger, 2010-2012. These populists can bask in their own narcissistic glory on their own dime. You and I would be the ones left holding the bag for their failures.

I'll take boring and successful pattern bargaining over the risk of going super nova any day of the week!

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Again, we thank Captain Mestman for taking the time to write.

If there are any questions or comments, please contact us or file a PDR!

In unity,
Scott, Brian and Jim
(C57 LEC officers)

Perhaps more correctly, a suggested edit: >>>When it comes to the current negotiation, I'm more concerned about winning... however slow and boring it may appear. I'm very, very wary of so-called leaders who promise us glory based on nothing more than empty rhetoric that reflects their own egomania and thirst for power (Todd Insler). These narcissists have failed us before; just ask a United pilot who was around during the first two years of the merger, 2010-2012 (when Insler and most of these ALPA lifers were already in there). These ALPA Team players can bask in their own narcissistic glory on their own dime. You and I will be the ones left holding the bag for their failures, as we have so many times in the past.<<<

But what do I know...

My reply:

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C57 Officers:

The bad historian here starts his "just take the crumbs when they’re on the table" screed using a wildly off base historical analogy. With mainland USA completely immune to attack from Axis powers in WWII the outcome of that struggle very much WAS a foregone conclusion the moment the USA entered the fight. Admiral Yamamoto knew it and famously told anyone who would listen as much. But looking at the name calling here (and in C34s rant), perhaps the best quote comes from another Axis leader who knew they were doomed after biting off more than they could chew. "Avoid excessive sharpness or harshness of voice which usually indicates a man who has shortcomings of his own to hide." - Irwin Rommel

Calling the opposing view and perhaps a large percentage of your own council “narcissists” and other names is George Hise BS Scott. I thought you were better than that. All you have to do to win any day is stick to the facts and the data. Mestman doesn’t do that. He starts off with a BS “fact” and then fills out his name-calling screed with his set of assumptions, some 20/20 hindsight, and cloudy crystal ball predictions of what could maybe possibly have happened. This isn’t “bird in the hand vs. one in the bush” common sense wisdom, it’s more like “bird we got vs. the hypothetical bird we may have found in the bush.” If I were British I’d say, “Bad show.”

Had we NOT done that extension in 2015 we would not be in the current position we are with not having had pay raises for years while working on a stale contract from 2012 that needs major improvements. Hey look at that, I can make cloudy crystal ball predictions too!

This is what your predecessor, who the author worked so hard to oust, had to say in Dec. 2015. Perhaps you’ll send this out to the council again? Ha! I slay me.

https://www.linkedin.com/.../chairman-elect-john-barton.../

If we’re going to invoke the past, allow me to do so. In the mid-2000s a Council 57 officer called me to ask that I support a T/A that was before the pilots. I said that I could not do so because while it had some good things it also contained some concessions. He said, “But Oly it’s such a good deal. It’s like them giving you ten dollars and you handing back two.” I replied, “Then just hand me eight dollars. Or five, or whatever but you don’t get anything from me. We already gave too much.”

One thing I can say is for sure using my 28 years of 20/20 hindsight when it comes to ALPA and the UAL MEC: SOSDD.

VR,
Capt. Oly Olson, 787 LAXFO

Former C57 FO Rep./Vice Chairman, C57 SO Rep./Secretary-Treasurer, C57 Communications Chairman, UAL MEC Communications and RJ/Scope committees

P.S. Regarding the link above: Yes, I understand that he's about as popular as VD with some pilots here. My point was that if we're going to start dredging up 2015, well...

I love the spin game here. Every single one of these letters makes it seem like pay rates is the sticking point.

While I’m not thrilled with the pay rates, it’s the QOL hits that make me a no vote. How hard is that to grasp.

Thats because QOL issues have no impact on many of the union staff, but pay rates do!

But even the rates where a joke. 9.5% over 2 years when the CPI show’s about 17% is needed NOW just to have the same buying power we did on our last raise.

exactly! Unreal that they still can’t comprehend the problem. They’re gonna be confused when they review the survey data tomorrow and it doesn’t say the pay rates were the problem.

Well Jerome you left out one its bitsy detail. Delta Pilots did turn it down overwhelmingly, their MC resigned and numerous members of the MEC and NC were recalled and replaced.

Exactly. He completely failed to address the numerous and devastating QOL gives throughout this horrendous TA that the NC didn't value or analyze the manpower implications of.

The pay rates are the problem

a joke

If the pay rates are the problem have you seen the pay rates just ratified by 90% at UPS? Through 2025. How could one group support lower rates by 90% yet UA pilots would not? I think this goes to prove the issues were work rules. I could be wrong though. UA’s proposed pay rates were a fair bit larger than the UPS rates.

They have a DB plan and FedEx has 216 hours of vacation. Are you really this dense?

Work rules AND pay rates are the problem…along with sick time, vacation, training, etc. But PAY DEFINITELY was a problem

UPS vs. United
0% in 2022 vs. 5%
4% in 2023 vs. 5%
3.25% in 2024 vs. 4%
3.25% in 2025 vs TBD, new contract

I don’t see United getting more pay with the renegotiated TA. I really think they are going to fix the early show for reserves, and LCA pay, and send it out to vote again.

They better up the pay a lot if they want that 50.01percent

have to at least match AA management proposal to not be a complete insult.

Either no concessions or current book for me. I don’t care if they toss in a 30% raise. Our QOL rules suck already, I don’t care how much money they throw at me I will not vote yes to a single QOL concession. I can make more money if I want to. I can’t claw back any of the QOL gives the first TA had.

This is the best negotiating environment in decades. I will not accept a single give that makes me spend more time away from home, steals the overnights I bid for, or otherwise damages the perks that we have.

as someone who can’t vote yet (half winger), I’d love for QOL rules to be the focus of a new TA. Yea, pay could be higher, but as someone on reserve through this summer, I got absolutely hammered by scheduling only to maybe barely hit or break reserve guarantee.

Our reserve rules are literally a reason for someone to not work at United. If I were a scheduler, I’d put everyone on short call or FSB every day because…why not? (and that’s what they did, if not some mediocre trip) There’s basically no reason for them not to. I’d aggressive pickup when I could, but it didn’t always work, or sometimes I was on a 6 day silo. Long call is a pipe dream for some of us.

if you think you can never be at risk of being on reserve again, I won’t try and change your mind. But if people skip United because of work rules, it’s still going to impact you when they continue to build 90 hour lines and there are 190 unfilled CA positions because nobody ever wants to be on reserve again.

Bingo. I will never willingly be on reserve here again, even in base. I also know that I may not have a choice which is why I’m dead set on at bare minimum not making reserve worse.

#MakeReserveSenior

i almost wrote that, in an ideal world, reserve should be going to senior in-base people (because they want it and reserve is good). No way that’s happening with what’s we have.

also, global reserve….shouldn’t be a thing. All those flexible days? No thanks. Regular is bad enough. There’s another reason all the new hire widebodies go last in class (with few exception)

before too long, every base/equipment will be global. I mean, Cleveland got global just because they do a few Lajes trips. It’s nuts.

reserve will never go senior.

the only reason one would bid reserve by choice is counting on the fact that you won’t be used.

given our staffing and the standings trends this will never happen. it is all about
pilot productivity

You could make reserve profitable. For example, make field standby lines, 16 days off minimum, and you get add pay for anything flown outside of your original FSB block. Incentivizes the company to only use you for actual emergencies and to get you back ASAP. More nights at home, nice pay bump. I’d do it over a 12 day off 89 hour line.

Pure FSB lines are already in the contract. Has been for 20 years. Pays 90 hours. The company can build them but choose not to. When they built them back in the day, bottom reserves couldn't hold those lines. They already have tools available to make reserve better. They just want to make them worse while making us pay for the changes.

I know, the goal is “make reserve senior”, and maybe we should push for FSB to be taken out of normal reserve and be made pure FSB lines only. I feel like there was 0 creativity between ALPA and the company on this TA. It’s basically “here are a couple mutually beneficial common sense minor tweaks (Longer overnight for a downtown hotel, first class meal options for crew meals, both likely save the company money and are also a net positive for pilots), a bunch of concessions, and here’s some cash”. So FSB lines exist but aren’t used- we need to work on language to incentivize their use. Maybe you can only assign X number of FSB to reserves for every Y number of FSB lines offered. Maybe open up APU on the day before your first reserve day to allow some add pay opportunity for reserves. Maybe only make X percent of a base global reserve. There has to be some tweaks that could make reserve attractive to those that live in base without seriously hurting operational integrity. We should be able to make reserve attractive for reasons other than “I hope I stay home and don’t get used”.

Reserve should go senior in the winter and junior in the summer. Winter is usually easier and you're not missing much pay. Some guys already bid reserve for Christmas ✞ off.

FIFO has to go.