PVG and PEK from EWR could still legally be done as three day trips, the company chooses NOT to schedule them that way so there is more of a departure window coming back in case of a delay.

Not Pek, the wait just to take off is known to take at least an hour, in which you would time out. The company provided the Ssc with the stats in ground times until departure out of Pek and over 50% of the departures in six month period would have timed out and cancelled if on a three day trip, both out of Ord and Ewr. Not reliable service imho. We waited over an hour last week to get off the ground in Pek. Pvg is doable out of Ord but tight for Ewr.

PEK out of ORD has been a three day for a long time after 117.

Pek out of ord has been a 4 day for quite a while now.

Then I don't know what to tell you, maybe the delays have gotten worse over the years. This is the reason the company gave the Ssc. Now I am sure the company would rather have it as a 3day as would the pilots but something is causing the switch.

PVG has been a 3 day, but I don't think PEK has been since 117 went into effect.

With the acclimation that the longer layover gets, you have 4 hours of "headroom" when departing PEK.

With the shorter layover that you have in PVG, you only have 1.5 hours of "headroom" on departure there.

If you had the shorter layover in PEK, then your duty limit would be shorter and you would go from the 4 hours of headroom down to 2 hours (shorter flight back to ORD from PEK than it is from PVG).

Unfortunately, due to the above mentioned taxi out delays historically in PEK, the company doesn't want to take the risk. My personal experience is that it has gotten substantially better in PEK, but I am not sure what the current data shows and it may just be that I have gotten lucky.

Apparently the data shows that PVG is enough better than PEK that, even though it is a longer flight, it can still be done as a three day. Hopefully my personal experience is actually becoming reality for PEK on a daily basis and we can get the trip built as a 3 day.

I get it, the EWR 777 pairing guy (Mark D) has been after the company for a long time to explain why a Chicago trip can be three days while the almost identical trip in EWR has been four days.

Unfortunately for you guys out of EWR having the slightly longer duty day to get back home really puts you close on the duty limits.

Your PVG-EWR leg has a 15:55 duty day, and with a short layover (making you not acclimated) you only have a 1630 duty limit, so 35 minutes of headroom.

Your PEK-EWR leg has a 15:10 duty day, so that would only have headroom of 1:20.

Obviously, if they aren't willing to go for 2 hours of headroom for us ORD folks in PEK, going to only 1:20 for you guys is going to be a really tough sell!

Don't get me wrong, I would totally support any effort we have to get these as three day trips, but I know that is going to require some consistent data that supports it before the company will make a change.

Silos don't help us here, as I am sure the extra hotel costs aren't in Flight Ops' budget, but delays and cancels get them in hot water. So, they are under pressure to protect the operation but not under pressure to keep hotel costs low!

PEK delays are driven solely by the Chinese government, not the company, and not the UPA. The slop in trip efficiency is out of our hands, it could be a 3 day were it not for the special "made in China" quality of the airport operations.

If the US atc controllers consistently put Chinese carriers at the end of EVERY SINGLE line, like Chinese atc does to US carriers, maybe it would change. Not holding my breath.