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Bidding vs. training freeze

Old 07-03-2017, 12:54 PM
  #1  
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Default Bidding vs. training freeze

Just want to make sure I have it right and see if anyone has had experience with this.

The UPA section 8D seems pretty clear on training vs bidding freezes. If someone bids laterally in a vacancy category, then they are on a bid freeze vs. a training freeze, and cant bid another airframe (to include going up in a category) for two years unless they are just moving domiciles in the same airplane or going up to captain in the same airplane. .

So someone going from 737 FO TO 320 FO is on a bidding freeze and is locked for 2 years from going up to 76/77/78 FO or 737 CA even if there are vacancies and they have the seniority to do so.

However, if the same 737 FO went up to 76 FO instead of laterally to 320 FO, they are only on a training freeze and would only be locked going back down to 737/320 FO because they bid up, and could still bid 777/787FO, 320/737CA at any time there is a vacancy and they had the seniority.

Not sure if this is how it works in practice or if the IT system still lets you bid up.
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Old 07-03-2017, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by okieskies99 View Post
Just want to make sure I have it right and see if anyone has had experience with this.

The UPA section 8D seems pretty clear on training vs bidding freezes. If someone bids laterally in a vacancy category, then they are on a bid freeze vs. a training freeze, and cant bid another airframe (to include going up in a category) for two years unless they are just moving domiciles in the same airplane or going up to captain in the same airplane. .

So someone going from 737 FO TO 320 FO is on a bidding freeze and is locked for 2 years from going up to 76/77/78 FO or 737 CA even if there are vacancies and they have the seniority to do so.

However, if the same 737 FO went up to 76 FO instead of laterally to 320 FO, they are only on a training freeze and would only be locked going back down to 737/320 FO because they bid up, and could still bid 777/787FO, 320/737CA at any time there is a vacancy and they had the seniority.

Not sure if this is how it works in practice or if the IT system still lets you bid up.
TRAINING FREEZE = you just bid up in category.
BIDDING FREEZE = you just bid laterally/down in category.

On a TRAINING FREEZE you can bid up, but not down or laterally until 2 years have passed.

On a BIDDING FREEZE you CAN'T BID ANYTHING, either up or down, except Captain on the plane you are on, until 2 years have passed.

You can always bid up (i.e. 737 FO to 756FO) UNLESS you just did a lateral bid (i.e. 320 FO to 737 FO) which causes a BIDDING FREEZE. So if you go from Airbus FO to 737 FO then the ONLY thing you can bid is 737 Captain.

If you just went from 737 FO to 756 FO and now decide you want to bid down to Airbus FO you CAN'T until 2 years have passed. You are on a TRAINING FREEZE. The only thing you can do is keep bidding UP in status.
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Old 07-03-2017, 06:16 PM
  #3  
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Default UPA Section 8-D Freezes Explanation

UPA Section 8-D Freezes Explanation

The following report is from the System Schedule Committee's Manpower Subcommittee

The SSC has observed a number of pilots bidding for Vacancies that could inadvertently result in their incurring an 8-D-2 Bidding Freeze (hard freeze). Previous Company explanations of Section 8-D Freezes have been incomplete so we find it necessary to explain this section of the contract more fully.
There are 3 types of freezes in the UPA, 8-D-1 Equipment Training Freeze,8-D-2 Bidding Freeze and 8-D-3 New Equipment Type Freeze (not to be confused with a New Category or Base, New Equipment Type means a new aircraft like if the A350, A380 or E-190 were to be introduced to the airline.)

This article will focuses on the two main types of freezes, 8-D-1 Equipment Training Freeze and8-D-2 Bidding Freeze.
These two types of freezes are based on the use of Equipment Band (freeze bands). These bands are made specifically for Freezes and are not related to pay bands.

The Equipment Bands are as follows:
1) 321/320/319FO, 737FO
2) 767/757FO
3) 747FO, 777FO, 787FO, 350FO
4) 321/320/319CA, 737CA
5) 767/757CA
6) 747CA, 777CA, 787CA, 350CA


8-D-1 Equipment Training Freeze

This freeze occurs when you start training from a Vacancy Bid award that involves moving UP in Equipment Bands from a lower numbered band to a higher numbered band (e.g. 737 FO to 767/757 FO). It also applies when you are recalled from Furlough and for your initial assignment as a New Hire.

When on an Equipment Training Freeze you will always be allowed to bid to a higher numbered freeze band, lateral (same equipment, different base) or to bid to a new Category (e.g. DCA 737). The thinking here is you should not be penalized for doing what comes natural to pilots (moving up in pay) or from just lateralling to another Base on the same Equipment as a lateral does not require any training.
This type of freeze always begins the first day you start training, including Indoc or Redoc training if necessary. If the total number of training days is 13 or more the freeze is 24 months, if the number of training days is less than 13 the freeze is 12 months. There is no freeze at all if training is not required.

8-D-2 Bidding Freeze
This freeze occurswhen on you bid down from a higher numbered band to a lower numbered band (e.g. 767/757 FO to 737 FO) or sideways within freeze bands (e.g. 737 FO to 320 FO (or vice-versa) or 320 CAP to 737 CAP (or vice-versa)).
A Bidding Freeze is a “hard” freeze that blocks almost all movement. The only exceptions are bids up to Captain on the same equipment. A bid from 737 FO to 737 CAP would be allowed for a pilot on a Bidding Freeze however a bid from 737 FO to 320 CAP, 767 CAP, 777 CAP etc. would not be allowed. Lateral bids and bids to a new Base (note, that’s a new Base, like if the company opened a base in MSP, not a new Category like DCA 737, are also allowed.
This type of freeze always begin the first day a Pilot starts training or, if training is not required, on the date of his Activation, and lasts 24 months.

In Addition:
Lateral Bids (same Equipment, different Base) are always allowed and don’t incur a freeze.
In all cases of allowable movement, there is no compounding of freezes. The old freeze ends and the new freeze takes its place.
Under 8-D-1-e a New Category (e.g. DCA 737, SFO 756, and ORD 756) and for 8-D-2-c a New Base (example MSP 737 or LAS 320) are considered “New” for all Vacancies with effect dates within 6 months of the effective date of the first vacancy bid in that New Category or Base. You still will incur a freeze if required under the associated paragraph.
Freezes that transitioned from old legacy contracts to the UPA maintain the length of your Freeze but the freeze itself becomes an 8-D-1 Equipment Training Freeze.
If you are on a Bidding Freeze you cannot get out of it by bidding to a New Category. However, if you have no freeze or have a Training freeze already and bid down into a New Category you would incur a Bidding Freeze beginning on the first day of training for your new position.
For example: if you are a 777 FO still on a Training Freeze and you bid to SFO 756 FO you will incur a Bidding Freeze. You will be unable to bid anything but 756 CA for 24 months.
The SSC has asked the company to develop a report that clearly displays each Pilot’s freeze, how it was incurred and when it expires. This item remains on IT’s “To Do” list.
Please see all contract references below:
8-D-1 Equipment Training Freeze
8-D-1-a When a Pilot enters training for a vacancy award, he may be ineligible to be awarded another vacancy for twenty-four (24) months if the number of training days (excluding days off) for the training he has entered is thirteen (13) days or greater, or for twelve (12) months if the training he has entered is less than thirteen (13) days. There shall be no restriction on his eligibility to be awarded another vacancy if training is not required.

8-D-1-b An Equipment training freeze shall also apply to a Pilot who requires training upon being hired as a Pilot or upon being recalled from furlough.
8-D-1-c An Equipment training freeze shall begin the first day a Pilot starts training, and shall apply to any vacancy bulletin whose closing date falls within the duration of the freeze.
8-D-1-d An Equipment training freeze shall not restrict a Pilot in a lower-numbered Equipment/pay band from being awarded a vacancy in a higher-numbered Equipment/pay band, pursuant to the bands described below:
1) 321/320/319FO, 737FO
2) 767/757FO
3) 747FO, 777FO, 787FO, 350FO
4) 321/320/319CA, 737CA
5) 767/757CA
6) 747CA, 777CA, 787CA, 350CA

8-D-1-e An Equipment training freeze shall not restrict a Pilot from bidding to a “new” Category (a Category shall be considered “new” for all vacancies with advertised effective dates within six (6) months of the advertised effective date of the first vacancies bid in that new Category).

8-D-2 Bidding Freeze
8-D-2-a When a Pilot is awarded an assignment through vacancy bidding and such award does not move him from a lower-numbered band to a higher-numbered band in accordance with Section 8-D-1-d, he may be ineligible to be awarded any other vacancy for twenty-four (24) months. However, a Pilot shall be eligible to be awarded a vacancy for a "lateral" award (i.e., change in Base only; present Equipment and Status remain the same) without incurring an additional bidding freeze.

8-D-2-b A bidding freeze shall begin the first day a Pilot starts training or, if training is not required, on the date of his Activation, and shall apply to any vacancy bid whose closing date falls within the duration of the freeze.

8-D-2-c A bidding freeze shall not restrict a Pilot from bidding for a Captain vacancy in his current Equipment type, nor from bidding to a new Base (a Base shall be considered "new" for vacancies with effective dates within six (6) months of the effective date of the first vacancy bulletin for that new Base).

If you have any questions on freezes after reading all of the above, please send a PDR to the SSC Manpower/Staffing box.
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Old 07-03-2017, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by okieskies99 View Post
Just want to make sure I have it right and see if anyone has had experience with this.

The UPA section 8D seems pretty clear on training vs bidding freezes. If someone bids laterally in a vacancy category, then they are on a bid freeze vs. a training freeze, and cant bid another airframe (to include going up in a category) for two years unless they are just moving domiciles in the same airplane or going up to captain in the same airplane. .

So someone going from 737 FO TO 320 FO is on a bidding freeze and is locked for 2 years from going up to 76/77/78 FO or 737 CA even if there are vacancies and they have the seniority to do so.

However, if the same 737 FO went up to 76 FO instead of laterally to 320 FO, they are only on a training freeze and would only be locked going back down to 737/320 FO because they bid up, and could still bid 777/787FO, 320/737CA at any time there is a vacancy and they had the seniority.

Not sure if this is how it works in practice or if the IT system still lets you bid up.
Your understanding is correct. I went laterally from 737 FO to A320 FO and I have the 2 year bidding freeze. A LOT of people got tripped up by this because it was poorly understood/publicized!
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Old 07-03-2017, 11:55 PM
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