IPads
 

C11 Update 1/13/18:

Working for Free

You may have seen a recent CCS message regarding the IPad exchange. In part, the company says this:

To make the exchange as efficient as possible, please schedule an appointment at your assigned base.
The exchange process will take at least 60 minutes. Walk-ins (in your base) will be considered, however
appointments will have priority

Your ALPA Reps would like to remind you that we don’t work for free. Whether it’s 60 minutes, 600 minutes or 6 minutes, we don’t work for free. For those of you who are new or somewhat new, this is old-hat from management and you will see things like this throughout your career. The reason they do this is that it works: management is usually able to cull a few pilots from the heard and save money by getting some to work for free. As a reminder, you are not required to report early to “update apps” or operating systems on your IPad either. You are not required to power it up at home, let alone update or spend time fixing an IPad on your days off. You are not required to “flight plan” on your IPad at home, in the hotel room or on the van to the airport.

When Pilots agree to “work for free” it’s a great disservice to all of us. Some may see it as the path to least resistance, but in the long run it hurts our efforts to negotiate and deliver the results you are asking for. As we enter contract negotiations, it’s imperative we walk together. Old folks help the new folks; probationary Pilots call your reps with any questions or concerns.

Yeah they seem to have forgotten the commuters here.....I’m not making an “appointment” that I have to commute in early for:rolleyes:

An unpaid hour of work. I’m not down with that either, there is already enough we don’t get paid for.

Does seem like a mis use of resources.
300 dollar/ captain vs. intern.

There is no good reason for having pilots show up to spend "at least" an hour setting up their ipads, other than we agree to do it instead of the company paying someone to do it.

A friend works for an oil company that issues IPads. They do have proprietary apps on it as well. When they are replaced, everything is pre installed. All the user has to do is set up a passcode and email.

If I must set it up, mail it to me at home where I could set it up at my leasure. FedEx can handle getting it to me.

That's what I did the first time. Worked out fine.

I will not be driving in an hour early either to get the new iPad. I don't work for free. They seem to have forgotten that since the last time they rolled out new iPads.

BMEP, sorry, but I don't update my iPad at home either. Nor do I flt plan on my time. UAL is not paying for my internet service. Let alone initial setup. I update it as I can when I report for a flight. Sometimes, I have to wait in ops for the FOM to finish downloading before I head to the plane....

If they want more on-time departures, then they need to restore the duty day and earlier report times. I know the 777 is not a guppie, but a 45 minute domestic report for a basic 777 crew is not adequate.

Venturing wide off topic here, but what exactly is it about flying a 777 vs a 737 to ORD or OGG that requires greater preparation?

Honest question.

Nothing the guppie should be 1.5 hour report too. Anything that requires a map and a phone call to dispatch should be an hour and a half.

I’ve been on both ....

First, the chart... someone has to plot it and label it ( usually the IRO). Everyone else has to verify it’s accuracy because if the electronics fail the chart is your last resort (papa roach).
Second, is the time utilized at the aircraft completing the ETOP’s checklist.
Everything else could be arguably compared to the time needed for a domestic flight.

You’re missing my point: I fly a 737 regularly to Hawaii and have to plot the chart and run through the ETOPS checklist, I’m just trying to wrap my head around why the same flight (or a transcon) would require more preflight preperation time in a 777 as Capt. Fitzgerald suggested.

Any of You get paid for the last two iPads we have been issued? Then why would any of you think this round will be any different... we win a grievance I don’t know about for “working for free”?

You make a good point. Either the company is exercising its rights under the management rights clause, or the union needs to negotiate pay for "ipad refresh" or "company technology time", or some sort of pay event for this and any other type of non-normal event that takes more than a brief chit-chat with the CPO admin staff.

A new ID is a good example. just takes a minute to say hi, and grab your new ID before heading to the jet.

The entire IPAD thing is so foreign to me. I just dread it. I would rather have a root canal than sit through a bunch of beeps and squeeks that I don't understand. just give me my ipad and let me roll. I don't benefit or gain anything by sitting in a chair for an hour watching a bunch of stuff get installed. It sure is cool, but it doesn't help me understand the equipment any better. I just want it to work.

I think the difference is you've been conditioned to do it in a shorter period of time. Same for me on a B757 SFO-OGG. But, the trouble is, I find myself cutting corners. Not on big things, but in order to get it all done in 45 minutes the CA usually does the walk around, and there is no time for a crew briefing. Everything has to be done right, and done right the first time with no MX or catering issues.

Having more time allows more opportunity to spot errors and correct them and/or get help to where it is needed to get the jet out.

the 777 with twice the crew compliment and twice the pax load has allot of moving parts. The CA needs time to see all the parts work and to insure it's all getting done. Sure, you can cram 12 pounds of crap into a 10 pound bag, but why?

As stated, for an overwater leg, 45 minutes is not adequate, basic crew.

But to more seriously answer your question, since the "Integration," the 777 flight manual has changed dramatically. The FO essentially does everything now. His time is the limiting factor. Complete overhead preflight, FMC, Plot the chart, HF's, verify way points, all the ACARS, checklist resets, and the walk around.

I test the radar, and O2. Oh, and do some of that Capt networking. And.....777A's are routinely weight restricted, so that means I'm fighting with zone and load planning to get that last 5k lb weight instead of saving it for some mysterious reason and keeping 20 people off the plane.

Then, that 777 walk around takes like.....30 minutes to walk that far. It's a big ass plane....

The question you should really be asking is, why is the guppy preflight so short? To honestly do everything, my set up takes 22 min. It has for years. It's all the other Capt stuff that goes along with it...honestly go through the flight papers, and not just scroll through. Read the notams. Often Dispatch misses stuff. It really does take that long, and it should you too. If we are doing everything SOP requires.

And yes, I have around 5k hours in guppies.

What’s a guppy?

A POS with lipstick.

A (slightly*) modified 707.

*removed two of the engines and the water injection tank

Bankers hours
 

If you notice the hours available any given day for IPad refresh are bankers hours 8-4. Isn't that nice?

Guess I won't be doing it after or before a trip, unless I come in on a day off.

Good hours If you can get em. Those iPad techies must have a really good union.

So does a 2100 global departure with a 1600 show risk a timeout or fatigue call later in he night?

The large complicated piece of equipment surrounding an ANR headset.

Those are good hours!

Did you file an FSAP?

Ha, we all should be filing FSAPs

"If you think you should file an FSAP,file an FSAP"

No.

But it's like we intentionally try and compress everything time-wise. I don't get it. Then, factor in traffic from the layover hotel, or a van driver who is late, or my favorite, a van driver who tries to pile in 3 crews with a pseudo-modified pick up time.

LOL. but it should be "...that SHOULD be surrounding an ANR headset."

Too many captains here who apparently can't afford one.

Some give them free time every day when they flight plan and sign the release in the van to the airport. I bet the company could whittle the report down to 20 min and many would still find a way to gitter done.

I think if they would just give it a chance they would like the headsets.
No more “what?”, “is that what you heard?”, “I think that’s what he said”
Probably a hundred times in a four day pairing.

Curious how many are going to rush in to get the new iPad, and how many are going to wait to see how this plays out? As a reserve maggot, it's unlikely that I'll schlep to the drome just to get mine.

And when do I fly, my trips typically don't depart during normal business hours. While some may end before 1700, I'm not sticking around after working a 10-14 hour shift without compensation. Of course, I'm still chapped about only getting one hour pay for 3-4 hours of work (CQDL), so perhaps I'm an outlier.

What did the union say?

Can we stick to this topic as opposed to hearing protection in the Crap7? Start a new thread, or reopen one of the old ones.

Last time I flew HI, the charts were pre-printed with the tracks and waypoints already on them. Not so with the NATS. Add a few mins for coloring. I recently did a two pilot IAD-LHR. I was pretty darn busy. Add to that, C1 seems like a quarter mile stroll from ops.

As mentioned, the actual preflight is a time-consuming walk if done properly. Hell, you can stare at a single MLG truck for 5 mins if you want to. Add to that trying to meet with the cabin crew. Sometimes there's a dozen of them back there. Often, they can't be met all at once. So, you walk to the forward galley, then the mid cabin, then the aft. 2-3 mins of howdy-doody per galley and pretty soon you're talking real time. If one's a looker, well you're likely to find another minute or three for her too. Plus, the triple has more gals with cats and issues than any other fleet. Seems that every other leg, one with a problem ends up in the cockpit trying to get something solved in the back. Listen, figure out exactly what the issue is and call Maint. More issues per departure.

I never checked the water n waste status on a NB airplane. Add a minute for that.

Fire up the CPDLC and reset the checklists & datalink. None are individually big deals, but extra steps none the less.

Honest answer, I've flown 4 different NB types at U. All were easy to get ready in minimal time. For ME, the triple just takes longer and I HATE to rush. I'm old, slow and slow. Time is NOT on my side.

Mako,
I informed my local reps and our one of our new MEC reps of my intentions. They said the MEC is looking at it. I suggested a message from the MEC about going in unpaid to get this done. Maybe they will say something.

Hope for an FSB.

Message from the MEC today:

Optional iPad Upgrade Process Begins

This week the company will begin offering optional iPad upgrades. The new iPad should be a more stable platform with a longer battery life, however the current upgrade process is lengthy and done on an unpaid volunteer basis.

The MEC is working with the company to improve the process and ensure pilots can accomplish the upgrade as simply as possible. As professionals, we do not "work for free" and both ALPA and Flight Ops agree the upgrade process is strictly done at a pilot's convenience. At this time, there is no requirement to upgrade your iPad, and we do not recommend attempting to do so by coming in early prior to a trip. If you have any questions or feedback, please contact your LEC officers.

I’m trying to remember......did we get paid to update our Jepps back in the day?

Yes...because we did it in cruise and not at home.

Question:

can we mail it in the flight office and get them to mail us back another one? I've got 13 days off in a row coming up and that may be the way to go?

Probably (almost) no one will "rush" to get one...
Why would you? Most younger generation pilots, while loving new tech, probably have their own devices and will swap out their company IPad next time they have a long sit, or sometime during their commute. In or Out>

It's the 'older' pilots who seem to be making a bigger deal out of this. Probably the same group who also use it as a 'personal' device. Funny, *****ing about getting paid to pick up a piece of equipment yet too cheap to buy their own personal one!

As far as getting paid.. well, didn't we pick up the last 2 (or 1?) without getting paid? Didn't we already argue this point?
Did we get paid when we went in to get our vests? new ID's?
How about when we go for our FAA physicals?
Do Capt's get paid when they fill out an IR in their hotel room, or at home?
How about the 4 hours of required Computer training that pays 1 hour?

For some reason, one council decided to make this an issue. And now a handful of diehards are *****ing about it. In the end, most of the 12000 pilots will swap out their Ipads when they have a chance. For those who don't have 'sits' or refuse to go down to the CPO while at the airport, maybe they'll get them at TK next time they are there.

But I love this motto.. 'We're Professionals, we don't work for Free". LOL
Let's remember that when we try to get Public support if we get into a labor impasse. Pretty sure the whole country would laugh at the pilots about '*****ing' to swap out an Ipad. Think the NMB will offer us 1 hour pay?!
BTW, what is ALPA National's view on this. What does EVERY other airline do? Delta? FedEx?

I have a much BIGGER issue that it takes me 3-4 hours to do my required computer training at home, yet I'm only getting 1 hour of pay vs. going into the CPO and swapping out IPads either before or after a trip.

Standing by for the incoming..
Motch

PS) I would bet that this is actually more an issue for the local guys & gals.. especially the local Widebody group. Commuters may have many opportunities to do the swap out.
Seems that on one of the other Forums, they are saying that people are swapping out between sits today, walk ins are what they are doing, and that it's pretty quick and painless.

I don't think there is any time line on the swap out. Why not wait till Feb/March when you find yourself in a base with a few mins of dead time~
Bound to happen at some point!

Motch

I drive to work and have enough trouble making it by my show time, let alone an hour early. I will plan on getting the thing on a sit sometime at my convenience. Seems if they allowed pickups in other bases from the get go it would be easier. But that is the companies choice. Not going to bend over backwards to make it happen.

What's so hard about taking your unions advice and not doing this for free just yet while they try to work something out? Are you that opposed to taking their advice? You used more energy trying to convince folks to ignore what their union has suggested they not do than it would take to just follow the implied direction.

Don't know about first iPad pickups, however Todd wasn't the MEC Chairman at the time. If anyone can get us paid for this company requested time donation its Chairman Insler.

Vest and ID pickup was after report time, so yeah....you were getting paid.

FAA medical? Is that company required duty or a Federal requirement? Can you see the difference....?

IORs? If at the hotel, yes you are still getting per diem and trip rig...

CQDL....yes you get paid, maybe not what you should, but you are getting compensated.

Even with that list of things we should be paid more to do, the fact that anything is better than zero should keep the majority from donating an hour for free to the company.

[QUOTE/]As far as getting paid.. well, didn't we pick up the last 2 (or 1?) without getting paid? Didn't we already argue this point?
Did we get paid when we went in to get our vests? new ID's?
How about when we go for our FAA physicals?
Do Capt's get paid when they fill out an IR in their hotel room, or at home?
How about the 4 hours of required Computer training that pays 1 hour?[/QUOTE]

Yeah you're right. We already do so much for free, why not uncomplainingly add to the list.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

It's not bound to happen. In PBS, you can bid to avoid sit time, or award airports such as GRU, etc. As a person that flies Rio, Sao Paulo, Bogata, Lima, Santiago, I don't have any other base than my own. I also don't believe you can do it in another base anyways....

I don't ever have sit time in the airport during a trip. I go to work usually about 8PM at night or so on a Thursday or Friday and I land about 5 am on a Saturday, Sunday, or Monday. Sometimes I have sit time, which is unscheduled MX delay somewhere between 2200 and 0100 hours, but not likely Ipad peeps at the airport then.

Even if I came in an hour early for report time, no way the flight office would be open with Ipad peeps. For fatigue mitigation reasons, I don't want to come to the airport super early and then hang out all day before I go on a 10.5 hour flight.

767, 777, 787 pilots don't have sit time in my experience.

While it would be nice to get paid, I simply don't agree that coming into work early is fair to your employees, no matter what sort of company you work for. McDonalds doesn't make employees come into work early. But, bigger picture and more applicable to my situation is this: Coming in early would degrade safety margins and increase fatigue. What if the entire 3 man crew for Rio came in at 4:00 local base time to get their Ipads? We were on duty from 4PM until when exactly??? I am not sure the FAA would buy that. What would our CCO time be?

Guys.. I NEVER said 'go in early.. stay late..."

I myself will not go in early, nor will I stay late. Last time, I got mine during a delay. Big deal.

And to comment on ThePengiun328-
If we are in between trips, we are still getting paid via trip/duty rig. Not to mention PerDiem. FSB's are getting paid..
So, in that case, is it ok to swap out your IPad?
How about all those guys who have had to swap out IPads that broke over the past few years.. aghast! They did that for free?!

As I mentioned on another Forum..
I expect that Todd Insler, the entire MEC/LEC & Committee Chairs will NOT being getting their IPads until they are compensated for their time.
Then again, that should really help with company/union relations especially since we are supposedly trying to do an expedited negotiations.

As for 89Pistons-
This week the company will begin offering optional iPad upgrades. The new iPad should be a more stable platform with a longer battery life, however the current upgrade process is lengthy and done on an unpaid volunteer basis.

The MEC is working with the company to improve the process and ensure pilots can accomplish the upgrade as simply as possible. As professionals, we do not "work for free" and both ALPA and Flight Ops agree the upgrade process is strictly done at a pilot's convenience. At this time, there is no requirement to upgrade your iPad, and we do not recommend attempting to do so by coming in early prior to a trip. If you have any questions or feedback, please contact your LEC officers.


Nothing different than what I've stated before. Not required by the company (optional).. no one EVER said go in early or stay late. No where does it say DO NOT UPGRADE.

But I love the 'We do not work for free" line..
Yes we do. We are paid from brake release to door open. We are not paid from when we show up to work UNLESS you believe that M5D, and trip/duty rig means we are paid when we show up to work.
In that case, since we are paid when we show up, going in and doing an IPad swap is during our paid time. Which is it?
Always interesting to see where individuals are willing to draw the line. Just a matter of opinion, really.

Any Delta/FedEx guys (& gals) want to chime in on how you do/did your EFB pick ups or swaps...
How about some of the other carriers?

Thanks
Motch

pS> Maybe we need something in our next contract that states that in the event of an IPad swap, we get :30 mins of pay/duty. Keep in mind, we are NOT paid for Drug tests, just :15 mins of extra duty. That may or may not matter based on your trip.

You should NOT go in early. I agree. You're the perfect example that the union should mention. No way for you to get your swap unless it's during a delay AND someone is there to do it.
Maybe you're the example of an individual who should swap out when you're at TK.

I'm a 756 guy. I got my last IPad during a delay. I get the issue for some (a few) pilots. But that pilots who are doing swaps between trips (during a sit) or on FSB are now being called 'independent contractors' is Bull****. (edited for the snowflakes with sensitive eyes~).

The Company NEVER said you HAVE to swap by a certain date/time. Nor did they say 'come in early... stay late...'
But one council decided to twist facts and now we have this goat rope of a conversation going on.

Motch

PS> If I remember right, last time it started out with M-F and office hours and transitioned to weekends and later hours to accommodate the WB/International crowd.