What about the Comair or Colgan incident to see what fatigue can do?

ATI has had a couple of severe fatigue induced fatal crashes. The three engine take off at KMCI was another blaring example.

https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19950216-0

According to the owl on here that posted, as long as you run for exercise or drink beer at 7 am before driving kids to school, then fatigue will not be present. You will be soundly rested and defy human biology. If only the Colgan crew knew that.

There’s a possibility the user whose story is in doubt is in fact very real. Most of us have flown with pilots who handle fatigue very differently from one another. So, extrapolate that and there are going to be outlier pilots who can do the freight-dog hub-turn life without consequences. I think the reasonable argument is that those people are fairly few and far between.

One of my best friends flies for FedEx and the amount of soft time and benefits he gets versus a legacy passenger carrier are pretty incredible. He commutes and bids seven day trips with deadheads on either side and a weekend layover; the result is that he is only actually flying about 8 to 10 days a month and can use his travel bank to create a PS commute to and from home. He flies the 767 and although he does not do too many hub-turns, he often flies at a different time of the day/night every day of his trip and feels pretty beat up for at least one or two days at home.

Comparing apples to apples, the narrow/mid body flying at a passenger legacy probably has about 15% of its total block hours at night, maybe less (San Francisco as an extreme example will have about half the pairings with an all night segment. On the 737 maybe 10% have two all night segments in a four-day trip and the union general pushes back against the company when they see those pairings. What this means is that for those who fly ANF trips, one of their four days is that night, but over half the pairings have no night flying at all). Saying that FedEx has plenty a day flying, may mean that 25% of trips have no night flying. But that means 75% have night flying, and to be honest and realistic, I would bet at least 40% are exclusively night flying, many of which are hub turns which are far more brutal than a single leg all-nighter.

FedEx is an absolutely amazing job for certain people, but your lifestyle is going to be fairly different than a legacy passenger pilot. Anybody who tells you differently, is either ill-acquainted or not being totally truthful

The Colgan "accident" had a lot more to do with incompetence than it did fatigue. If well rested, the accident would have likely just occurred at some other place on some other day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khFbqsVgr6I

100% accurate.

We're talking about night freight schedules.

No matter how much of an outlier, nobody is immune to fatigue after being up for 25 hours, regardless of how much they run

Nobody is immune to fatigue. Nobody. He may be able to do that here and there with little impact but he said he does it every week. It’s impossible he’s not fatigued. It’s biologically not possible.

For the sake of truthful discussion (which is why we’re all here):

A. In a world of 7 billion people, there are people who are immune to fatigue at 25 hours. Like a lithium battery vs nicad, at some point every human will run out of juice, but the performance diminishment isn’t linear for everyone and the time to exhaustion is also different.

B. He is probably more diminished than he realizes, but (if real) maybe at 25 hrs he is like most of us at 16 hrs. We don’t know.

C. His type of schedule wouldn’t not be healthy for 99% of us.

D. I personally am happy only flying a couple red-eyes a month. I fall somewhere right under the fat part of the bell curve as far as fatigue performance degradation goes

As I mentioned there is not much difference between being chronically fatigued and just be used being chronically fatigued. You might think you are getting away with it but your body is keeping score. Also as I mentioned if the guy is an outlier (weird) was the term I used. Then he's an outlier. It does not change my experience with night freight. Skrew that stuff, it's not for me.

Sooo.....I’m thinking the 22:00 to 02:00 simulator block is your very favorite!.........😉

I don't know what's worse 20:00 brief or 04:00 brief. On the 20:00 slot I'm getting home at 03:30 to 04:00. On A 04:00 brief I'm getting up at 02:00. The thing is one or two of those don't bother me. When I have four or five of them in a row. They start to wear you out.


On the line we generally don't do four or five all nighters sequentially in a row. This one of the things that sucks at TK.

That’s what I gathered the first time I saw the Mayday episode.

FedEx or United?
 

Reviving this for some advice.

I have a CJO at both. I'm 30, so my seniority will be great at either in the long run. I currently live in a UA domicile, and I'd probably never leave this domicile. I wouldn't move to MEM, but if i find the right partner one day, i'd definitely consider CGN and HKG.

No idea how taxing 35 years of night flying at FedEx would be. That's really my biggest concern. It looks like United is going to be a very fast upgrade soon, and wide bodies will go to junior FO's if that's really a consideration. All seats of all planes at both airlines are trending downward consistently. Historically, it seems like a no brainer for FedEx, but times are unprecedented at United. If 50% of the pilots are cut by 2030 for some reason, i'd still be 50% there. I like to think either option is going to provide a great income for a family at some point in my life. The number one thing i care about is quality time off and pay. I'm hoping to have a happy family at some point. I won't be one to chase the dough. If i'm doing my math right, i'll probably retire top 100 at FX and top couple hundred at UA.

What's the thoughts on living in base at United vs. commuting at FedEx?

UAL vs FX
 

Reviving this. CJO at both. I live in Denver, with no intentions of moving to a FX base unless I find the right partner for a future world tour of bases. Curious what the thoughts are on driving to work for a legacy vs commuting to FX. I’d retire top 80 at FedEx and top 2-300 at United it seems.

Times at United are unprecedented with seniority. Literally if half the pilots are cut in 2030, I’d still have very good seniority. In the past this seems like a no brainer to go FX, but the seniority and living in base at UA seems enticing. I’m a QOL chaser, not a shiny jet, route, or money chaser. I’ve already adapted the philosophy of putting myself in a 65 year olds shoes and asking myself if I wish I would have worked more over my career. The answer is most likely no.

The whole pax vs no pax is negligible to me. I care about the quality of my off days.

Thoughts of who you’d go with if you were in my shoes?

Always drive to work if you can. You’ll have to commute for a bit with Denver being relatively junior, but well worth it in the end.

Ha! Putting myself in a 65 year olds shoes? You can bump up a number when I retire at 53 and enjoy life. You should seriously consider that tactic!

If you live in Den, QOL at the schoolhouse can be pretty fantastic from what I hear.

2020 was definitely an anomaly, but one that shows itself in this industry every 10 years or so. Further, you can plan on at least three more downturns of some sort in your career. That said, do you want to be at an airline that will furlough you, or go to an airline that has never furloughed?

Didn't Delta and UPS used to say that?

should we clarify "PAX airline" ?

Since the OP was referring to United and FedEx I don't think we need to clarify anything. Regardless of what you're flying one airline has furloughed, the other airline hasn't.

Like other have said, the chance of getting furloughed is likely lower at FedEx; however, you'll never be able to sit reserve in domicile which you could likely within a year at United. And if as it sounds, your goal is QoL, you can get full pay with doing very little for as long as you like. And in the summers when flying gets busy, you can bid a line when you ant more control of your schedule.

And could go work at TK as an Instructor if that’s to they’re liking in terms of QoL

FedEx to United
 

Another interesting way of deciding if what you say is true: if FedEx had a DEN base, which would you choose? In other words, if you didn’t have to commute to either, where would you go? This will get to the heart of whether it just comes to commuting. If it does, then your choice has been made.

If you’re searching for QOL you’ll have a better time in my opinion at FX. I was in the same shoes as you living in a UA base, and I looked at all the data - with my big decisions being stability and QOL. I’ve never worked a weekend or holiday simply because our schedules don’t really have many departures on those dates. With all the double deadheads, you can be a 1K at United driving to the airport with a paid commute to work sitting in first class. Again, it’s only my opinion, but looking back over the past year and into the future, I was glad I wasn’t stressing about whether or not I’d be furloughed.

No airline has ever furloughed until they had to.

Ok. Still doesn't change the fact that stability (QOL) wise, would the OP rather go to an airline that has shown to have furloughed multiple times over a 30 year career, or one that has never had to do so.

Or one that may be single pilot within 30 years?

Definitely a possibility, but guess which other "airlines" will be right behind us? The OP and the rest of us will be senior enough, you'll have the luxury to decide to retire instead of fly single pilot ops.

I think “right behind” is overstating it a bit. Merely pointing out that both pax and cargo ops have a “boogeyman” that may or may not affect your risk assessment for a career.

Both are gold tickets. I think FedEx probably wins in overall compensation, but if OP plans to remain in DEN for a career, UA offers many more QoL options.

See my post from 3 years ago both on here and FedEx forum.

Don’t regret leaving FedEx (NOT ONE SINGLE BIT - even with the covid era). My body, my family life and my overall mental well being are 1,000X better at United!

Sounds like you gave it a go, and perhaps may have interacted with some of our "anomalies" that have either retired or went to the triple. If you had stayed you'd be in the top 35-40% holding all day flying, with double dhd trips since you sound like a commuter. Not for everyone, but it has gotten better since you left.

IDK I have friends at FX who are miserable! Red eyes tough schedules and not the best culture… they would all come to UAL in a heartbeat. Having said that I also have a friend who left UAL for FX during the pandemic, he is not regretting it one bit.. To each it’s own.
I personally prefer flying human beings to their destination but that is just me.
Both great companies, leaving a CJO on the table for a company that will retire 90% of its pilots in 15 years will hurt at some point in time… Good luck.

Notice most of the responses to “why leave FedEx” are usually “ I get first class deadheads and will be a 1k at some point”. NOT THAT THE FLYING I ACTUALLY DO SUCKS AND ITS KILLING MY BODY AND WREAKING MY FAMILY LIFE”. That is all…. You’re welcome!

Alright, I’ll bite. To the OP, no matter which way you choose, I think you’ll have a great career.

1. QOL: impossible to predict which one wins out. Family life changes and evolves throughout ones career. Either the family makes changes to suit the job or the pilot makes changes/sacrifices to suit the family. If you desire a training job then it’s MEM or DEN. I know which city I would rather live in and I know that I would never want to commute to a training job BUT that’s me. At Purple your bases are MEM, IND, LAX, OAK, ANC, HKG, and CGN. HKG and CGN offer something that no other airline offers but you may have zero interest in that. I have friends who layover at home on every trip because of the unique nature of trip purity but those are becoming less frequent as the schedules are optimized to a changing operation at purple. UAL has a similar base structure minus the international options but you do have a few East coast options (EWR/IAD) that Purple doesn’t offer.

2. Commuting: not even close this goes to Purple.

3. Night flying: do not discount this. It isn’t for everyone. Some (more than a few) simply can’t find a way to make it work. That’s okay. No amount of money is worth it if you don’t find a way to adjust. Keep in mind that international is night flying no matter who you work for. Purple international layovers are generally much longer and if you used properly give ample time for recovery and adventure.

4. I’ve never flown with a Captain that asked me to cook their meal.

5. Vacation: I don’t know about UAL but it’s worth asking, How long does it take to hold vacation in the summer and what does that afford you? Maybe vacation in the summer means nothing to you. It did to me.

6. Yes, I love international DH’s. Getting paid to commute is nice. I also take full advantage of my airline status and enjoy using the miles to travel with the family when we want without any stress. It’s a perk but wouldn’t decide where I work.

7. Travel bennies: if you’re flexible they are nice. No doubt.

8. FA’s/Pax: an issue once a year if that. Never made much issue to me. I do like flying in my pajamas and eating or using the head when I want. Wouldn’t use this to decide a career.

9. single pilot: not anytime soon.

10. two great companies. Congratulations, a great problem to have.

I dunno, 3 years here at UAL, vacation over July 4th weekend. 102 hours pay…

There you go. That would be important to me and you answered it. Which fleet and base?

As of today, DCA 320 FO. Tomorrow : Can pretty much be whatever I never thought possible a year ago. CA 320/737 3 different bases. 777/787 either coasts at 77/81% respectively or so FO. Very respectful seniority 75/76 any base east/west coast FO. Can hold senior bases like IAH,ORD,DEN….but not something I’m looking into.

It’s not the night flying that would bother me about working for FX. It is the night hub turns and sitting around. Used them this year and it looked miserable. One pilot from each crew was “laying over at home” (daytime layover) so I guess that worked out for those two but the night sort stuff would kill me. The first leg probably not too bad but the sit and subsequent leg killed me as a jump seater and I couldn’t imagine doing that for more than a few months in my career.
Now, having said the above - I don’t understand our (UAL) guys saying “I can’t do red eyes “ and then talking about all our international widebodies etc. as a positive. When you fly a 777 or 787 (or even the 757/767), long haul, a portion of that will be at night most likely so let’s not get too high and mighty. Yes, we have people to prepare our meals using real China and utensils and good rest areas (FX 777s have even better), but we “fly at night” as well. Like so many have said- a good problem to have in selecting between the two. Very different cultures/flying careers. I’m very happy with the one I made and I hope the OP is as well, no matter the direction taken.