But handily put up with a management team that can't keep up with them and pennies on the dollar for retro? I get it, our scope is better than theirs and well worth fighting for but I've been watching chinks in scopes armor appear on almost every contract I've had to live under. Guess you could say we've caved slightly less that Delta has over the years?

Yea team !! :rolleyes:

Delta’s profitably also has to do with the fact that they don’t fly nearly the wide bodies that we fly. They have the best wide body fleet, they just don’t fly very many of them. They leave that up to their partners (i.e. Virgin Atlantic which they own 49%).

DAL ALPA had also never voted down a contract. The ATL LEC which is/was widely regarded as another arm of mgmt lost their proverbial feces when TA1 was shot down. TA2 was even better with full retro, which the old DAL guard said would NEVER happen. Guess what...

Why in the world would you think we have to give anything up? I finished giving in the bankruptcy contract. Certainly not scope.

With minimal changes to the reserve section, we can get huge improvements to QOL, with little cost to the company. Just stop the intentional abuse that really doesn't net the company anything except some limited improvement in their flexibility. A little planning on their part would avoid the need entirely. But that would necessitate actually doing their job instead of short cuts to staffing.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/QAqPB...7131477716f84a

This is spot on. Unfortunately the company is only really willing to talk if scope relief is on the table. We have said that any changes to our scope policy will only tighten the language. Without scope relief, they see no real need to negotiate a new contract at this time, with scope relief we’re don’t see the need to talk. Here we sit. At least we’re getting 20 brand new max 9’s this year.

Yet strangely Delta flies more flights across the Atlantic than any other airline in the world.

Well I guess it is a good thing for the other airlines that there is more than one body of water (Atlantic) to fly across.

People state information on the web all the time. Links with proof please, if you want intelligent people to believe you.

Also, from a pilot perspective it is not as important as pay and QOL. United pilots look to Delta and perceive a "greener grass", but the truth is UAL has WAY better work rules and FAR more pilots paid at the top rate as a percentage of the total pool of pilots.

A couple simple examples:
1) Delta pilots show up for their trip and the company reschedules the entire trip with no cost. NOT true at United.
2) Delta pilots are expected to extend when FAA 117 limits are hit. United pilots can and DO refuse and/or get paid.

This is a ridiculous argument on many levels.

Both of the above are incorrect. A Delta pilot can’t be rerouted prior to the first leg of a trip. In addition a Delta pilot can’t be rerouted into any uncovered leg known more than 14 hours in advance. Doing either if accepted by the pilot triggers double pay.
Delta Pilots can refuse an extension and in fact its being changed as we speak to opt in rather than opt out system.
Each airline has some better and some worse work rules. To state Uniteds are way better is quite a stretch. Delta for example uses two CA’s on flights over 12 hours and augments any flight over 8 hours.
Delta requires turns on narrow bodies exceeding the FAR’s to also be double crewed rather than a relief pilot. Dinner and a show to the Caribbean.

You forgot to mention our incredibly lame PTC protection that dumps every single minute of overs when there is a cancellation or reschedule. Or the even better day off restoration that isn’t as long as you are deadheading home the day after your trip supposedly ends.

2 gems leftover from previous L-UAL contracts that never should have seen the light of day.

As a PS, yes I know CAL’s previous contracts sucked but we were light years ahead of you on these two items.

Best practices my ***.

How many Delta narrowbodies have an FAR compliant rest seat that would allow a relief pilot to be used on those turns?

No rest seat, no relief pilot.

UAL contract allows a pilot in coach middle seat to operate the turn.

No it doesn’t. Not for augmentation.

5-J-4

You might be thinking of the double crew concept where one crew flies down, the other deadheads. They swap. In that case yes a middle seat Econ+ is possible.

But not for an augmented flight.

Please elaborate.

Exactly my point. Most other airlines on those routes waive the rest seat requirement and allow a standard first class seat so a relief pilot can be used. Delta requires it be dual crewed.

I’ve called out my LUAL brethren for this same thing: STOP with the “WE and YOU” crap. It’s only US now.

And that’s what UAL does too. Two crews for same duty period Caribbean turns.

For example:

Agree but I'm not sure how to describe it as these were L-UAL holdovers from the past that should have been thrown in the trash. Supposedly we were to take the best policies from either carrier and these two weren't even up for debate. Can't tell you how many thousands of dollars I've seen thrown away over the years and I'll bet they won't even be discussed on our future CBA.

A standard FC seat is not FAR 117 compliant, that’s why Delta needs two crews. UAL does the exact same thing on 737 Caribbean flights, the 757 has lie flat seats that comply with FAR 117 for a rest seat.

You can’t “waive” an FAR 117 regulation.

Someone wrote about "best practices" and combining them in the UPA. Best practices are best in the eye of the beholder and in the pockets of UAL.

The whole rest seat requirement is governed by FARs these days (wasn't so much back in the day) and are a non-negotiable item for contract purposes.

Personally my "best practice" is to only fly an airplane with a bunk for those long overnight augmented legs. The rest of you who are willing to fly coast to coast behind the clock need a hotel a step or two above the Best Western and that is a negotiated item.

Personally my "best practice" on those vacation months where PTC is a factor is very simple, enjoy the time off.

Back in the day a "senior" line of flying had 20 days off and pay time less than 75 hours. No one was allowed to max their hard time, but such is life. Enjoy your days in the metal bird.

All you need is a foam foot rest and a standard first class seat and your good to go. Costs about 50 bucks for the footrest. Actually you don’t even need the first class seat. A coach seat modified to recline 40 degrees is legal as well as a cockpit jumpseat.

) Class 3 Rest Facility. A class 3 rest facility is a seat in an aircraft cabin or flight deck that reclines at least 40 degrees. It provides leg and foot support (§ 117.3, TNO Report recommendation paragraph 5.2.5).

Thanks; I was about to post that. Here's an AC on the subject: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...r/AC_117-1.pdf

I also wanted to call you out on the carrier with the most seats across the Atlantic. But you were correct; Delta is #1: https://www.anna.aero/2018/04/18/tra...airport-table/

I don't see anywhere in that reg where it addresses just throwing a foam footrest on the floor, "it" appears to me to refer to the seat itself. Any modification would need to be approved by the FAA and added to the MEL, I don't think it's as easy as you imply.

Because it’s called a negotiation! Everything has a value!!! That’s the way it works and the Company doesn’t really care what you gave up previously.

I'm with Dave on this. The concession stand is closed. We caved plenty on the first joint contract. Anything for a greenback and to stop smisek and pierce. Unfortunately, there were reasons for this, then. There are none today.

I couldn’t agree more. Yet there are those who are looking to lower expectations and believe we should fund our own gains. If management has enough capital to rebrand the airline from top to bottom, purchase billions in stock buybacks, experiment with high CASM rj’s, infuse foreign airlines with cash, then they should have enough capital to provide an industry leading CBA with no givebacks. Period.

Well said RJ!

I’m not sure why sailingfun needs to come in here extolling the virtues of Delta’s work rules. He or she should be cheering for us to do well in our section 6 so they have a target to match.

Or you know, at least get domestic crew meals, guaranteed Economy Plus for DH, middle seat pay, RHA VEBA, 117 extension pay, new hire hotels and guarantee, or any of the things that add value to our operation every day.

At least if they fixed their international JV problem they could have routes more than 12 hours to use two captains on.

A standard first class seat is not good to go. It requires modification in order to comply with the FAR for an acceptable class 3.

UAL spent months getting a subset of Guam 737’s configured and certified for the island hopper. 40 degrees of recline eliminates the row behind it, unless you shift how the seats are laid out. Basically think of the old first or business class recliners (before lay flat was the norm) as the minimum of what’s acceptable.

And again no coach seat as a rest seat for augmented flights.

5-J-4 Seats comparable to Economy or Economy Plus are not acceptable for crew rest.

How many narrowbody jumpseats can recline 40 degrees? :confused:

He does have great info about how delta operates. It is definitely a positive spin, and most if the time he does not express his views very eloquently. We have major QOL issues as you stated above that need to be addressed and of course our scope and JV language. I hope you guys have a huge win, because this will help the delta pilots and push the industry ahead.

I’d prefer the cash over the VEBA ala Delta as well. At least give us a choice and not make it mandatory.

There is no such thing as “not mandatory”. All get or none.

You must love throwing money away if you’d like to pay your top rate tax on the extra money.

A recent R&I seminar said that were looking at that.

Did that part of the tax code change with the new tax law?

Q: Why are the $1.00 per hour contributions mandatory?
A: If participation was voluntary, or the pilot had the right to opt out, the IRS would view the contribution as an elective employee contribution, and the IRS does not permit elective employee contributions to be made to health reimbursement arrangements.

https://crewroom.alpa.org/ual/Deskto...cumentID=49609

Not when my VEBA is already well funded at $100,000+.

VEBA's great to a point but I want to be able to choose between putting more in or getting it in cash.

So you plan to only live for 5 yrs in retirement and have no eligible dependents? That is how long 100k lasts for the average retiree.

+1. I’ve read several places that the number for a couple is $250,000 set aside for medical expenses in retirement.

I'd like to see your math and variances on that one considering the VEBA is medical and medical related expenses only. Throw in many different scenarios, to include TRICARE, and your "average retiree" comment doesn't seem so average. 100k seems a good spot for some as a singular medical slush fund.