Delays and reporting
 

Pilot Mobile and the United App show a 1:05 delay (late inbound aircraft). What's the best course of action for report time? Assuming no contact from scheduling for reset, etc. can you just report at a time based on the advertised delay?

It's the start of a trip, so there's no transportation from hotel to deal with, but what if there were? Does that change things?

Is this spelled out anywhere?

TIA

They could always do a plane swap last minute...might get caught with your pants down if you stay home an extra hour.

Good point. Thanks

For serious delays I call scheduling and ask if they think that delay will stick and tell them I will plan on arriving about an hour before the delayed departure. For a delay of 2 hours or less I don’t even bother, I just head to the airport. As stated, the swap will screw you.

I thought once they post a delay passengers can see, they will not leave earlier. As a lot of PAX will then miss the flight.

Be careful talking to scheduling before FDP start. That’s a good recipe for a soft start.

Question....
You’re sitting ops 20-30 min before report time. (Traffic was light or you commuted in 1+ hour ago)...

Phone rings from scheduling...

A) It’s ok to answer because you’re in ops and have shown?
B) It’s not ok to answer, because it is before show time... so you “have not shown”?

You fly ......... they manage.
Show up at show time.......

You are not alive until show time.

Let it go to VM and see if it is worth your call back.

That’s the flag for me. Yesterday I tapped the “where is this aircraft coming from” and it had diverted. UAL App said late, stayed at hotel and went to dinner. Surprisingly, also got a courtesy VM from scheduling saying stay at hotel.

Absolutely!

As a PDR guy, I would caution against voluntary 2 way contact before report time as you open yourself to many possibilities that are potentially way worse than spending some additional time at the airport.

From a FAR117 legality perspective, That day’s report time is the basis for all calculations like FDP limit, etc.

You make contact, you are now on the hook if they decide to get creative yet inside the limits of the UPA and FAR. A Soft Start is only 1 of the many possibilities.

My 2 cents

Lee

I know for a fact this is not true. I've had several flights that they actually did move the departure time much earlier than the delayed time. And people missed the flight. The last one occurred about 4 months ago out of SEA. I was shocked they would leave the pax since the gate agent said delay was at least three hours and they would call over the terminal PA and to listen up. Plane swap, and we left in 45 mins, and zone control said I had to go over my protests. With the memo that came out a few months ago that said flight operations controls if a plane gets to hold or not, that overrode me insisting on waiting on the pax that we were royally screwing over.

Zone said you "had to go"? Really now, who's in charge of the plane and the brake it's attached to?

Why do so many pilots have this urge to answer the phone when scheduling calls? Never, never answer your phone when they call. Especially just prior to show time...this goes for your cell phone, hotel phone, bag phone, etc.

If there is a safety issue PIC has final say...but when they want it to go it goes....we get paid to fly.

Can they soft start a non-global flight?

"We get paid to fly" is what a May '85 hire told me one time. What an abdication of responsibility on both accounts.

Use your brain.

Four minutes before departure and you notice a family of five run to the gate. The cabin door has closed and the jetway is starting to move away from your jet. You have plenty of seats open. You're flight planned 8 min early flying slow. Zone/ops says they aren't bringing the jetway back and you should push on time.

What do you do?

I think you missed the memo that went into detail from ALPA and company about the Captains trying to make the call on keeping the door open for pax. It's not in your control and stated in the memo. Though a pilot is trying to do the right thing, we do not have all the available information for connections downrange and where that plane is needed, etc... It's not about zone overruling the CAP, it's when NOC tells zone, it must go. You cannot say no. Or you can, but you'll be getting a call from FODM that tells you, you must go. You don't have a leg to stand on, since what info do you have to support your "eye in the sky" decision? Right, not enough! So let's stop with the Captain Authority issue. Doesn't apply here when a decision from the top comes.

Exactly....but Floyd and his brain apparently thinks that is a scab mentality...:rolleyes:

You're still not answering the scenario in post #18. I'll make it even easier with additional information. The plane is going to an outstation where you know it and the crew stay the night. Routing and legality issues are not a factor. OBTW, it's the last flight of the evening. Zone says go and you're really going to leave people behind?

I fully understand at times we don't have all the information. Pretty sad when the situation is so glaringly obvious, zone tells you to go, and you hide behind "we get paid to fly".

Yep.

Foot stomper time! A soft start can only occur via 2 way contact (or CCS acknowledgement) PRIOR to report time.

Lee

The definition of pilot in command does not say “safety only,” it DOES say “final authority” though.

Last Christmas Eve, DEN-BZN final flight of the night. I got wind of 4 running from the Express gates to B-16. Agent wanted to close up without them for an on time. Zone said so. I flat out refused to move knowing the Express flight had arrived. Turned out to be a military family from SAT with 2 little kids. We left 15 late and arrived 1 minute late. Christmas Eve. I can’t believe how stupid we are sometimes.

Throw a noob a bone here. What is a "soft start"?

It resets the start of an FDP with two way communication during the FAR rest period. It doesn’t really make sense but it’s allowed because the by the pilot allowing the two way contact (answering the phone) it’s considered voluntary. Otherwise it could be considered interrupting required rest thereby restarting the FAR rest clock.

Not sure how long you’ve been a Captain, but zone doesn’t give orders to Captains. I’ve brought jetways back on the last flight of the day to get frantic pax on a few times, as well as directed agents to board Jumpseaters who were going to be left behind. You, as the Captain, have the final say of everything that happens on the jet from the time you show up at the gate until you release the crew at the destination. To abdicate your responsibility just because zone said so is just poor form. Btw, I’ve NEVER been called or questioned about such decisions. But the thought of explaining it to somebody doesn’t even move the needle during my calculus.

This ^^^^^. I have swam upstream many times against multiple people that said we HAVE to go on time, never heard a peep but would have been more than glad to explain myself to anyone, up to and including the CEO.

It's really difficult for the gate agent to close the door if I'm standing in the jetway...but on second thought, I guess they could.

My point is, there are lots of things you can do to help out. If you are perceived as trying to help, it goes a long way toward getting late people on. Much more cooperative and by standing in the jetway "trying to help" making a very solid statement you are not going, without being a ass doing it.

Oh, BTW, never answer the phone before or during a trip.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/19/38...5f76aadde5.jpg

Thank you, Captains!




.

It establishes a RAP for the pilot beginning at the original show time.

See the MEC DYK for a deeper explanation.

Lee

Yea Floyd...I could probably stall the flight few minutes on the last flight out if I see with my x-ray vision that poor family running down the terminal. But your cherry picked scenario was not what we were talking about was it? So why don't you answer the question about what we were talking about...30+ passengers milling about the airport...god knows how long to round them up and they are telling you to go? How long are you going to wait and delay the flight to knowing you just may be creating a hell of a lot more problems for more people if you don't go???

Thanks fellas.

Wrong Answer! You can be ordered to fly. This isn't an unsafe aircraft or operation, so yes you can be ordered and you will comply. And you will be called on instances such as this now. Remember, a notice was put out by this for a reason, so the PIC doesn't make a command decision where you don't have all the information. It's great you came back to the gate to get 4 extra people on board, but you then screw 80 connections at your arrival station. Nothing prevents the PIC from inquiring first with zone and telling them you are flight planned quicker, and to confirm the decision to go. Heck, call the FODM right there since he will be in touch with the NOC. When the NOC tells you to go, what are you going to do now, big guy?! Still refuse cause you are the PIC? Again, they have information you don't, and that's what they emphasized with a notice that PICs must refrain from 'demanding' and 'purposefuly' holding up an operation because they deem it to be fit. This isn't about Captain's Authority's degradation. I'm all for protecting CAP's authority, because it's your airplane. But it's your airplane inside their operation. Your decision with lack of information could be screwing up the bigger picture.

I’m beginning to think you aren’t a Captain here, since you seem not to understand what the job entails. Of course we can be ordered to fly. But ONLY by a qualified Management Captain. No NOC rep can order a Captain to do a damned thing. Not gonna waste any more time with this. I, as well as other “C”aptains already know the answer. Feel free to abdicate your authority to whomever you like.

Is that the same thing as a safe word? :)

Happened to me (us) recently...
Food for thought-
Say van time is 750 with an 815 show.
Wakeup calls are at 650

So the company starts reaching out to us at 650ish to let us know we are delayed, and to 'Soft Reset' us.
Low and behold, one of the pilots answered his phone in the room..
other acknowledged via CCS before van time and I did the same AT van time.

So.. soft reset.
Here's my question-
The time from wakeup to van time is what?
The time from van time to airport time is what?

MANY pilots are acknowledging and FFD'ing before even showing up for the van.
Seems to me, when you FFD at 7am for a 815 airport show/duty you are giving them 1hr and 15 mins of your free time.. and time for them to Soft Reset you.

I am all for moving the mission. And 'typically' I wouldn't even be bothered with an early FFD.. but seems that this new "Soft Reset" game that scheduling is playing is being done to -
1) Keep the operation moving WITHOUT the crews needing to extend.
B) Have data points for any future labor/management 'issues'.

Had I NOT acknowledged the CCS msg, my unSoft Start day would have still started at 815, but they would not have gotten the extra 4 hours that they ended up with.
I would have had to extended.. which I would have done (I get to the airport with my uniform on, I'm spring loaded to lean forward and get the job done).
This Soft Start saved the company about $1600 among the 3 of us~

Food for though

Always
Motch
FS, FP & FtC

Yikes. It's 2019. The company owns the airplanes and the airline. You're an employee. You operate within the authority given to you by the company. If they want the airplane to depart, barring any safety concerns you might have, you comply. Captains are not God anymore.

Wrong forum.

The widgets are this way.

They can always get someone to replace me, their choice. Usually it’s faster to just wait for the connecting passengers.