TK Training Throughput?
 

So starting in June guys who are displaced into the Bus/737 fleets will start arriving at the TK, and I can't recall anyone here making an informed estimate at how fast crews can get trained into those fleets. Obviously, how fast Bus/737 guys can get trained has a big impact on the size and rate of potential furloughs. I'm putting some numbers here but would appreciate it if anyone can improve on them, especially since I've never worked at TK. I count 6 Bus FFS and 9 737 FFS. I assume each can do 5x4 hour training events per day (4 hours being set aside for maintenance).

The Requal-1 course appears to need two FFS events, RQ-2 needs 6, and RQ-3 needs 7. Initial Qual needs 10. For this guesstimate I'm assuming everyone needs an RQ-3. I think only a handful of folks will be eligible for RQ-1 and quite a few will be able to do RQ-2 so I figure they will somewhat balance out those who need Initial Quals.

So, if the Bus sims can handle 30 training events a day they could qualify an average of 4.3 crews every day (30/7 RQ-2 FFS). Comes out to 129 a month and 514 crews between June and September 30th.

The 737 sims can handle 45 events per day and qualify 6.4 crews per day (45/7). That makes 193 crews a month and 772 crews up until September 30th.

I think these guesstimates are probably well on the high side. For example, in June they will certainly not push out 129/193 crews since the first crews attending training will not even be graduating until at the very least a full week into June.

Side question - How much notice are they required to give you to attend landings class and do you have any say in when you go? I'm making plans for June that I'd rather not get interrupted on short notice.

Might want to move this to the UAL section

A 737 PI told me last week that they can train approximately 55 crews per month... 320s around 37 per month. This is with the sim running 5 training periods and 1 period for maintenance and disinfectant cleaning. This is full qualification courses lasting almost 5 weeks... many pilots only need a short course that could be as quick as a couple days and some taking a couple weeks. Guess is that they training center will target pilots needing the short courses first and then start the full courses in July/August.

To keep it simple, I just considered "max" throughput on the sims and didn't bother with total time spent at TK (academics or FTDs). I have to wonder if the 55 per month total is with or without concurrent training going on (for example, cycling 2000 737 crews through two simulator periods every nine months would take up about 15 out of 45 sim periods per day). Lots of folks have had CQ events cancelled already so I wonder if 55 is an accurate max when the decks have been mostly cleared of CQ events. The lower the number the better though...

As a line holder you notify them at least 21 days out when you will be going nonqual. They will ask for a couple of dates that work. I’ve never had a problem where they didn’t make it work around my schedule. As a reserve pilot, just sit quiet and go nonqual, collect 73 hours pay, and if they want to send you to landings they can call you on an available day.

I never called them as a line holder. Don’t have too. And when they do call you to give you a landing class, you can reject the first class at no jeopardy.


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You gotta add in CQ too. They can’t dedicate all slots to Qual. Some one said 55 crews on the 737 and that’s probably about right.....I think I remember seeing a memo with number 65 on it once and that was a very high load.

A backlog at TK only slows furloughs when pilots are needed on the line. They’re planning for basically a 30% reduction with this bid. If we’re reduced 60% in October, we really don’t need very many pilots and that backlog isn’t that big of a deal. They could furlough 4,000 (approximate 30% number for sake of argument only) in October and simply train the survivors when they can. Also, by announcing a big number out of the gate, they can bypass training for everyone who will get furloughed. It’s more efficient than furloughing in waves when your demand and revenue are gutted. I’m afraid that we are more expendable than we like to think.

agree......until you furlough all the instructors you need.......4000 puts a HEAVY cut into the 737.

Would it cost way more to have crews go up in a 73 or bus and have them just do 3 landings in the pattern?

Im glad that I don’t have to figure this mess out. Sitting home on reserve when your nonqual is a much better deal. I do think that Carlson and others in the company are very good at what they do. The 550 was a cleaver scope dodge, and this bid was well thought out within the framework of our contract. That worries me. I have no doubt that they will find a way to make a very big cut in October if that is what they want to do.

I don't think they'll go with 5 sim periods per day when they open. I'd expect it to be 4 sim periods per day with a 1 hour cleaning period between sim sessions and a 5 hr maintenance period daily. So cut any historic throughput by 20% or so.

All of the landings classes will also reduce sim availability a bit.

I'm assuming your numbers above included normal MVs and LOEs.

there’s more to a landings class than that.

3 takeoffs 1 in visual 1 with reduced visibility
3 landings
V1 cut at lowest certified RVR
visual approach to landing
ILS approach to landing
SE ILS approach to landing
CAT 3 to an Autoland to the aircrafts lowest certified minimums.

so no 3 bounces in the jet doesn’t work unless we get a waiver and are able to get the cirriculum built and approved within AQP. Also we would need to train out evaluators how to check in the aircraft.

only evaluators that are LCAs would be able to do the training as they are the only group that can sit in either seat during a live United flight.

We don’t have anywhere close to enough Evaluators that are also LCAs so we would need to hire, train get the FAA sign off then they could do it. So yeah it’s not going to happen.

Both are great posts.

A backlog at TK doesn't matter because, as you mentioned, we're very expendable with current (lack of) flying demand from the public.

This massive displacement allows the company to train whomever they want. And yes, I would expect the cuts in October to be brutal from looking at the numbers. I would expect the first pilots retrained as 737/320 FOs to be some of the most senior displacements so that they will be able to keep the 737 and 320 properly staffed while they work on right sizing the airline.

Not arguing LCA availability, but if you stayed in the pattern and did 3 landings in an actual aircraft prior to going nonqual, wouldn’t that be the same as 3 landings on the line? Normal takeoff, autopilot approach until 200 feet, and a normal landing. It’s not a landings class, it’s just getting 3 landings in the aircraft, thus voiding the need for a class.

in theory yes but like you said they would need to get the pilots done before they go non qual. An LDRQ is considered REQUAL. That’s the only thing we have AQP approval for.

I did a group landings qual before being released to IOE a long time ago and at another company. There was one captain, one engineer, and 4-5 first officers. We would rotate through the seat on downwind after the previous guy got his bounces. Those old sims weren’t certified for landings qualifications. Just one more thing that used to be the norm that wouldn’t get approved today.

TK is planning 60% qual courses and 40% CQ when this spools up. They are going to have a difficult time with training as has already been said here,: Sim cleaning periods, travel to and from, bad attitudes. I highly recommend anyone who is scheduled for any Qual training request full course, be sure you don't come to training with any symptoms (it's allergy season), don't come to training if you feel stressed out (it's furlough season), take a flight that is convenient for you and your family, not the company's training schedule etc etc. We've been good boys and girls for years now... and this is what we get for it. CORE4.... it was a joke before, now it's ****in hilarious. #gotbuybacks?

I think the biggest bottle neck will be getting pilots through IOE once they get back from TK. Only so many flights out there and then consolidating...oh btw some of our LCA will be taken out by this massive flush.

the LCA ranks are being hammered by this on ALL fleets. By the way LCAs need sim training soooooooo there’s more sim slots down.

anyone know how long it takes to get an LCA signed off? 3 months? Not to mention posting the position interviewing and selection. 4-6 months before they are cleared to conduct?

They can elect to wait to send the bumped current LCA’s to their new seats and just eat the pay protection.

You beat me to it. I'd expect LCAs to be the last ones to be sent to training after being displaced unless there's not much demand for LCAs in current fleet but there is a demand for LCAs in their new fleet.
Example: 777 LCAs probably won't be in high demand.

A 4000 cut would furlough over 50-55% of instructors on the 737.

yeah I counted 77 that’s a huge number

To add to all of this the MAX is still due back in SEP. if the company wants to fly them every 737 pilot will need atleast 1 sim in the new MAX sims.

How long would it take to retrain 777/787 PIs? (Those fleets will likely have surplus PIs)


… 4000 is probably deeper than what the 1 Oct cut will be. Move that number to 2500 - now how many 737 PIs are furloughed?

A 2500 cut gets about 30-35 PIs on 737.

My best GUESS for those not trained on aircraft 8-10 weeks to start teaching some qual lessons, much longer till fully qualified for all PI events. For all the events that required FAA observation before teaching, months before fully quailed. For the next year, my guess is they need all the instructors they can get on 737.

Just my best guess.

full Qual course, IOE, consolidate, observe B1-4 and FFS1-4 then beonserved instructing those lessons. Since they where already PIs probably fast track straight into observing FFS6-9 and CQT, then observed instructing those lessons. Then again since already a PI fast tracked into observing QMV, CQMV, LDRQ, CQTL then observed instructing those lessons then FAA sign off.

8 months to a year. Also all those observations remove instructors from the sked not to mention the massive increase in required QCs.

also if they can 4000 they will lose a few 777 instructors and actually quite a few 787 instructors......probably more than they would like.

the 756 would lose about half as well which means not many could be sent to the 737

Can someone please explain the requirements for the various requal courses? I found the syllabi for requals 1, 2 and 3 on the iPad, but it doesn’t really delineate the time lapses since the last time you were current on the specific fleet. Thanks.

Ask for the full course. I will. Didn’t quite learn much when I went through initial down in IAH as a new hire. Hopefully it’s been refined.

Haha same here. That was a complete goat rope in Houston. I’ll definitely be asking for a full qualification course. Thanks.

You can ask for whatever you want, but you’ll be scheduled for RQ based on your time since going unqualified. Company doesn’t care what you want.

I’m sure that make a great headline if it became public.

I’m Concerned about the training.........I’m Uncomfortable with the training.........The training is not Safe..........CUS words.

It’s AQP. Just business, not personal. If you don’t meet standards at validation points, you get extra training. But the company is not going to give you a longer course because you ask for it.

They did to some during upgrade training. They were just jumping the trash bag. Yet they got their full course as requested.

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Well then ask away. I can only tell you what the flight training manual says and the responses from management I’ve gotten in the past year when longer RQ courses were requested. I would not count on company largesse in that regard.

That was a few months ago when the money printing press was going full speed and they were making money hand over fist.