Originally Posted by Guppydriver95 (Post 3174597)

here’s the rub. And please don’t take from this comment that I’m “anti mask”. The sim is supposed to replicate line conditions. On the line, masks are optional. How can we enforce them in the sim if we claim to be replicating line conditions/rules?

Originally Posted by Hedley (Post 3174619)

How did they deal with a full course and the O2 mask? I’ve never gone through a course without a required high dive or smoke/fumes event that required the mask.

Originally Posted by Guppydriver95 (Post 3174597)

here’s the rub. And please don’t take from this comment that I’m “anti mask”. The sim is supposed to replicate line conditions. On the line, masks are optional. How can we enforce them in the sim if we claim to be replicating line conditions/rules?

Originally Posted by TodKindrsChikun (Post 3174727)

Certainly if a surgeon can wear a mask during my 5 hr reduction surgery, one can wear it in the cockpit no? It just ain’t that hard. Well, masks in the cockpit and sim that is.

Originally Posted by Regularguy (Post 3174732)

I’ll write it again, if you are that concerned about COVID in the cockpit in actual operations, stay home.



Far easier solution for the rest of us.

Originally Posted by detpilot (Post 3174744)

Or, you can stay home, since you think that diminishing legitimate concerns about a serious virus is ok. That's far easier for the rest of us.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by detpilot (Post 3174744)

Or, you can stay home, since you think that diminishing legitimate concerns about a serious virus is ok. That's far easier for the rest of us.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by detpilot (Post 3174744)

Or, you can stay home, since you think that diminishing legitimate concerns about a serious virus is ok. That's far easier for the rest of us.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Hedley (Post 3174768)

I can’t imagine not being polite if the other pilot prefers to wear a mask, but according to the latest union email, not even the captain can mandate a mask when the door is closed. If there is a problem, the person insisting on the mask is pulled from the trip..

Originally Posted by TodKindrsChikun (Post 3174796)

I wonder how the anti masker would feel if it could be determined that he or she infected the other pilot? The pilot in turn infected their spouse who subsequently passed as a result. Does the independent contractor mentality allow for a conscience?

Originally Posted by Phins2right (Post 3174798)

Which is about a a 1/800000 possibility.

More likely to be killed by a drunk driver

Plz stop the nonsense.

Originally Posted by TodKindrsChikun (Post 3174810)

Answered my question. The rationalization of the independent contractor.

Originally Posted by Regularguy (Post 3174814)

You and the many others like you should be embarrassed about accepting a mind set of intentional ignorance.

Why?

Life is full of risks, from virus and disease to personal life choices, which effect not only your health but others. We could write here about all the actual and real things people engage in every day without a rational thought which reduce life. But yet something far more out of our control, the COVID virus, has become the center and focus of your mania.

Don’t smoke, eat less meat and animal products, exercise, watch less news, stop blaming others, less sugar, pop, alcohol, and more will save (more accurately extend) far more lives than anything suggested to mitigate COVID infections.

So why don’t you all rant about those things? Because masks are far more easy to point fingers at others over.

Go live your life and stay home if you insist others must wear their masks. Please protect the rest of us.

Originally Posted by WhisperJet (Post 3174813)

I just finished a trip with a copilot who asked me to wear a mask. I complied and wore it the entire trip. No biggie at all. Made him feel better. Made me feel better. I think I’ll do it going forward. Comms were not affected.

Originally Posted by TodKindrsChikun (Post 3174817)

Whataboutism redefined.

Originally Posted by Regularguy (Post 3174822)

You can’t even get this right.

”whataboutism
[ˌ(h)wədəˈboudizəm]

NOUN
BRITISH

1. the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.Also called whataboutery.”

I think you’re guilty of practicing it.

Stay home, do the rest of us a favor.

Originally Posted by TodKindrsChikun (Post 3174824)

Simple. Wear a mask and protect someone else. Don’t need to hear your talking points for deflection.

Originally Posted by TodKindrsChikun (Post 3174824)

Simple. Wear a mask and protect someone else. Don’t need to hear your talking points for deflection.

Originally Posted by TodKindrsChikun (Post 3174837)

You guys have the right to smoke til your lungs turn to ash, eat an unhealthy diet until your heart seizes, drink until you crap your liver out your rear. What you don’t have the right is to undertake an action or inaction that threatens the health of others around you.

Originally Posted by Regularguy (Post 3174844)

The talking point is this, YOU want to impose and mandate YOUR desires and fears on others in spite of the policies and procedures which have been made quite clear to all. And since YOU oppose these You want to change it.

Therefore the best answer is for YOU and others like YOU to exercise YOUR right to decide to stay at home and quit trying to impose and mandate YOUR desires on others.

Now if YOU would like to politely request the other pilot in the cockpit wear a mask, then do the responsible and mature thing of contacting the other pilot prior to the scheduled flight. This does two things, it allows YOU and the other to decide how to best make this work and it prevents all the other people (in the thousands BTW) who will be effected by any conflict YOU have caused by YOUR insistence of mask wearing from also being penalized by YOU.

YOUR decisions have a far greater reach than the simple spreading of the virus, but YOU are so myopic about it, YOU probably never noticed.

Best solution, stay home and stay away from the general population. That will spread one less potential virus.

Originally Posted by Regularguy (Post 3174847)

One last note on this statement which reveals YOUR ignorance or at least failure to understand life and consequences.

All those things mentioned, according to you, seemingly only effect the abuser. Well think again and look at the effects and devastation all of these bring to so many others, especially alcohol consumption. If YOU really cared about saving lives you may want to take your COVID passion and mania and apply it to other meaningful areas.

Or maybe just learn to let people manage their own lives a bit more.

Originally Posted by ugleeual (Post 3174849)

Right or wrong the company (and FAA) policy is clear... no requirement to wear a mask when at the flight control once the door is closed. If you want the other pilot to wear a mask then simply ask them... if they refuse you can either operate the flight without a mask or pull yourself from the trip after contacting the CPO/FODM. The company guidance is clear that one pilot cannot coerce another to wear one regardless of what rationale they use. Until this changes nothing written within this thread matters. The simulator is a different issue... company policy is also clear that you will wear a mask at all time or be subject to disciplinary action to include termination... you cannot coerce the other pilots to not wear a mask.

Originally Posted by TodKindrsChikun (Post 3174850)

You must realize how silly this “stay at home” and not work mantra sounds.

Originally Posted by Regularguy (Post 3174863)

Maybe now YOU and similar others, can understand not only how “silly” but also how ignorant it is to continue to advocate for others to bend to questionable ideas subjecting people to THEIR will. It’s literally tyrannical thought process hidden in a perverted sense of deciding for others what is good for them.

Let me also point his out, both the COVID and the recent elections have proven quite clearly that if something is said often and loud enough, regardless of its validity, people will conform and begin to believe it’s true.

This is similar and related to the “Stockholm Syndrome.” Make people hostages and they will eventually conform to their captors. It is part of the human existence and design.


But the idea of withdrawing from society and social contact to “protect” others maybe should be done and could quite possibly make the rest of us a bit more content. By doing so it prevents the unnecessary, unneeded and unwelcome projection of personal fears on others.

BTW good for you following company policy and FAA guidelines.

Originally Posted by Chuck D (Post 3174870)

Wow... grabbing some highlights here: "silly and ignorant, tyranny, perverted sense of deciding for others, make people hostages, unwelcome projection of personal fears".

This is so awesome. I'm sure you felt the same about various other highly contagious diseases in the past. I'm sure you're at ease with hospitals that are reporting being at or even beyond capacity despite unprecedented measures because that's probably also "said often and loud enough, regardless of its validity" so it's probably really all just BS.

Perhaps you're an epidemiologist or perhaps were one previously or are married to one and know all about pandemics and know those docs feel they want their time in the spotlight and are always just talking s#!t, or maybe just political operatives even if they worked for the last half dozen administrations, or maybe they're gunning for a book deal.

Or maybe you read an article in some corner of the internet about that one or even few times where Fauci or one of the other "experts" (quotes for "so-called" am I right?) made a recommendation based on the known data at the time and then, god forbid, he changed his position!!! or recommendation based on new data or analysis - proving definitively that these "experts" are full of it and whatever your favorite flag waving non-lamestream media personality Patriot (capitalized when we're talking about True Patriots) says is definitely the Truth (capitalized of course when owning the libs) and wearing a mask is satan's way or Chavez' or Communism's way of destroying capitalism or our freedoms or something like that.

I mean, totally. You've got it figured out.

Originally Posted by Chuck D (Post 3174870)

I mean, totally. You've got it figured out.

Originally Posted by Regularguy (Post 3174887)

So Chuck D since your so eager to project your prejudices and ideas on other with neither fact no a basis to do so let me point out a couple of things.

1. Most pilot s I know, which is admittedly a very limited sample, have told me they would wait to take the vaccine.
2. Close to 40% of the front line health workers, according to multiple people I know and again is a limited sample, have decided to opt out of initial vaccination against the virus and instead except greater limitations their employers have established for those who have opted out.
3. Dr. Fauci last week was vaccinated and encouraged all people to do so. He praised the efforts of the medical industry for their historic work in its development.

I personally intend to be vaccinated at the earliest possible time, however most of my family has said they will wait.

Now the questions for you panic stricken, authoritarian types demanding mandatory mask wearing in the cockpit.

1. Will you vaccinate ASAP to protect your fellow pilots?
2. If given a choice, which vaccine would you choose (Fauci, the expert, chose Moderna)?
3. Do you really care about others or is this really all about you?

Originally Posted by ualPHLier (Post 3174894)

4. Why do you choose to accept the validity of the CDC's guidance as it relates to vaccinations, but not as it relates to mask usage? Is your intention to get vaccinated ASAP motivated by a concern for others or is it really all about you?

Originally Posted by Regularguy (Post 3174880)

The FAA language requirement is this:

“Be able to read, speak, write, and understand English”

Originally Posted by Regularguy (Post 3174887)

....your so eager......and instead except greater limitations their employers have established for those who have opted out.

Originally Posted by Regularguy (Post 3174913)

4. You are in great error here about what I do or don’t accept. Sadly that is a fault many of you have and it’s called “projecting your ideas on others.”

So I’ll answer the question about masks, which I have done quite clearly in the past. I reject blanket gross statements like “masks reduce the spread of COVID by 70%.” Why because on its own this statement makes little if any sense at all and by accepting it one demonstrates a lack of personal thinking. By its very nature it is herd mentality or group thought.

What I do, and encourage others to do, is to read the actual CDC statement and the associated cited studies referred to. Since most people never get to the CDC sight and then most who do make it there fail to actually look at and read the citations, confusion reigns. I'm perfectly comfortable with following the guidance put out by a group of experts in their field, who are paid to draw conclusions and recommended actions for the group at large. You draw different conclusions from the same set of information, and act accordingly. Ok, smarty-pants. Got it. :rolleyes:

In a nut shell all the cited mask studies, controlled and uncontrolled, essentially observe and come to the same conclusions. People who faithfully wear masks (BTW the type of mask and ability to filter virus sized particles had almost no effect) also follow in the same manner public distance standards (>= 1 meter), personal hygiene and the sanitization, before and after contact, of the environment they are in. Those who occasionally wear masks also fail to observe those same standards. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2...ear-masks.html

So what reduced the transmission of the Virus? It is clear masks, while true they reduce the vapor/fluid distance of the wearer, unless they are able to filter viral sized particles, are not what reduces transmission by anywhere even close to 70%. What they clearly are associated with are those who faithfully maintain distance and cleanliness standards also wear masks in the same manner.

Even the State of California states the same so clearly on their web site. Masks therefore are a reminder to do the things which slow the transmission amongst humans. As I have also previously stated, those who don’t want to get or transfer the virus from or to other only one solution works, avoid or prevent contact with it though isolation (something foreign countries have successfully done in some very draconian and un-USA ways) or maintaining at least 1 meter or greater in public place and among people you want to protect.

Now do I do this? Yes, accept with people I know and are in agreement with closer contact. Do I wear masks in public? Yes because so many people are terrified they will get the worst sickness since the great plague.

I do not wear masks in my car, house, or outdoors when alone or with people who are also in agreement.
I do not look down on nor “narc” on those who reject masks or any form of distancing and hygienic care. Let them make their own decisions. (Decisions that the experts have determined can put those around the individual at higher risk of severe illness or death; a risk imposed on others, which could be mitigated, if not for the discomfort suffered by the mask-wearer.)
When in foreign countries I respect and follow their established regulations because I am a guest.

I also believe all of this clearly fulfills the CDC guidance to reduce the spread of the virus. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...coverings.html

What about cockpits? If you think masks will prevent you from getting the virus then have at it. But, and this is the point of this thread (drifted from), if you think being locked up in a small area well beyond the CDC recommend 15 minutes masks will prevent an infection and therefore you have the right to demand others to comply with those demands, well you are wrong and delusional. Not demanding anything. Just trying to open some eyes to the legitimate concerns of your coworkers, in the hope that compassion or empathy may at least warrant a reconsidering of the anti-mask (in the cockpit) position.

Now let me ask this, do you all actually sanitize the cockpit both before and after you have done your work? Yes. I do and believe by doing so, per CDC guidelines and cited studies, I will at least give the next pilot a chance to soil his own surroundings without any contribution from me. Thank you.

BTW I am getting vaccinated not for myself, because frankly I believe the statistical risk of death and permanent illness has been well documented and is minimal from the virus. I will get vaccinated to not spread the virus and help get the Nation and world back to some resemblance of normalcy, including no masks at all. This will employ hundreds of millions who are suffering financially while you and I continue to get paid as pilots.
I could make the same argument by replacing "getting vaccinated" with "wearing a mask in the cockpit."
Others need for us to be vaccinated!
See above. Again, not demanding.