DAL LTD “The Gold Standard”
 

In response to my email about the significant differences in LTD benefits at DAL vs our TA. Our UAL MEC R&I Chairman referred to the current DAL LTD benefits as “The Gold Standard”. He agreed with me that I’d much prefer the DAL LTD (even though DAL’s is taxable and ours is tax fee) vs the UAL TA LTD.

Before I delve deeper into the LTD differences between DAL and our TA. Please understand the following.

At DAL on day 1 of LTD you get 100% of your regular 16% B plan company retirement contributions. The very same normal B plan company contributions you would receive if not on LTD.

Currently in our contract if on LTD you get zero B/C company retirement contributions.

IN OUR TA ALL UAL PILOTS GET 50% OF NORMAL B/C COMPANY RETIREMENT CONTRIBUTIONS - THAT IS AFTER 3 YEARS ON LTD NOT ON DAY 1!

First three years on LTD in our TA - No retirement contributions.

For current 777 & 787 CA’s it’s less then 50% retirement contributions due to our caps. It will effect smaller aircraft 12 year captains but not nearly to the extent the Cap penalizes 777/787 CA’s for retirement on LTD.

In all fairness we did make some progress on LTD in this TA, but it’s woefully inadequate! How can we be getting 50% of what DAL is getting on LTD in retirement and have our LTD be sold as one of the best improvements in the TA by our MEC & NC? Unbelievable! Industry leading contract, yeah right.

Let’s compare both LTD plans.

DAL - 50% Pay plus 32% B Plan (thus the normal 16% B) NO CAP - Taxable

UAL TA - 50% Pay plus 16% B/C Plan after 3 years on LTD to CAP. Cap $12,500 a month initially slides up to $13,125 no later then 1/24 - Tax Free

DAL Pay is calculated at DAL as highest consecutive 12 months over the last 36 months.

UAL Pay is calculated at 85.5 hours per month (1026 hours annually) times rate or blended rate (as appropriate).

I could make the argument most line holders on the 777/787 earn more then 85.5 pay hours per month, especially with 6 weeks of vacation. But our system is better for reserves. So I will not debate this area.

Also, I’d much prefer DAL’s pay (No CAP) taxable vs our tax free with CAP. But I’ll just stick to the fact THAT ALL UAL pilots get 50% normal retirement on LTD (after 36 months on LTD not day 1) and all DAL pilots get full retirement day 1 on LTD.

Ok now let’s talk about our Cap. For current 777 & 787 CA’s (reserve and line holder). We will receive less then 16% after 36 months on LTD due to Cap.

Initial Widebody 12 year CA pay rate date of signing $365.94 X 85.5 X .50 equals $15,643.

At DAL (using UAL Widebody rate at 85.5 hours at DOS) that would be $15,643 X .32 (full retirement) equals $5,005.76 - DAY 1 LTD or $60,069.12 annually.

At UAL $15,643 lowered to $12,500 due to Cap $12,500 X .16 equals $2000 AFTER 36 MONTHS on LTD. 12.7% Retirement due to Cap. So that’s $24,000 annually.

That’s a $36,069.12 difference annually. Sound like we got industry leading LTD?

Look you never really appreciate LTD until you need LTD. Not getting a full retirement B/C contribution like DAL pilots is punishing all our pilots on LTD.

If you are as outraged as me on this very important substandard contractual provision. Please help me by doing the following:

1: I’m not on other forums or Facebook groups. Please help educate our pilots by posting threads of our totally inadequate TA LTD. You can copy and paste this post or edit, or write your own post. But get this info out to our pilots.

2: After this TA is voted down please contact your LEC reps and demand DAL type LTD or at least a full 32% B/C Fund contribution day one while on LTD.

3: Pass resolutions at upcoming LC meetings for the MEC to direct the NC to negotiate Full Retirement on day one on the LTD section on TA 2.

4: If polled please make sure to indicate the importance of a DAL type LTD with full retirement on day one (not after 36 months) on TA-2.

Apples and oranges. Delta is a different carrier with more lucrative domestic markets that weren't so badly hit by COVID-19. They have an industry-leading contract with excellent pay and work rules, so guys aren't so inclined to abuse LTD. If we had their LTD here, what do you think our premiums would be? You have to look at the big picture.

Are you serious?!?! Absolutely should be the same or close to DAL for everyone industry wide. LTD is one of those that the companies chip away at and we all just accept that crap! Demand better, demand more!

Ok you’ve done the widebody numbers and kind of glossed over the taxable vs non-taxable. How does that work out for a narrowbody 12 yr CA? Aside from the 401k, does a non-capped out pilot do better due to the tax difference? I’m not suggesting we’re where we need to be but it looks like you’re picking the biggest pay scenario of the most senior widebody CAs with 6 weeks of vacation.

How much bargaining power do you want to divert in that specific direction?

​​​​​​Is bargaining power even a real quantity?

I used the Widebody Ca numbers to show that a Widebody CA gets less then 16% retirement due to cap.

Every single UAL pilot gets 50% (or less) vs DAL in retirement income. That’s after having 0 retirement for first 3 years on LTD.

That should infuriate all United pilots. 50% less retirement on LTD, first three years Nada vs full retirement on day one of LTD at DAL. It’s really that simple.

Again let’s review LTD formulas.

DAL 50% X Pay (No Cap) X 32% for retirement.

UAL TA. 50% X Pay (Cap) X 16% (after 3 years) for retirement.

All UAL pilots below Cap still get 50% retirement (after 0 for 3 years) vs Full Retirement at DAL day 1.

Ok I get that. But what about someone not capped? 50% taxable at DL vs 50% NOT taxable at UAL. That’s what a 20-30ish% gov’t slice off DL depending on tax bracket? That goes a long way unless I’m missing something.

Wow,
looks like we are behind.

Tell me, what was out LTD at on Jan 1 2020?

Just going to say it. Your disgusting and an emberassment to the UAL pilots saying United is not an airline on par with Delta therefore UAL pilots deserve less. What's worse is that we are even debating LTD. The entire TA is a give back joke. While we squak about LTD and forget we have ZERO retirement plan management laughs at us. LTD should not be the discussion bit rather a retirement plan that pays out until death. Cmon man let's all get real for a second and stop being a bunch of roll overs.

I'd like to respond in detail to address all of your points, except Monday's town hall is going to focus on insurance and retirement. Our negotiating committee is much better equipped to manage the attitudes and expectations of line pilots so I'll defer to them. Let's avoid kneejerk reactions and wait until Monday night to pass judgement.

Tell you what I’ll save you from wasting your time
on the MEC sales show. Brad H is going to say. If we push for DAL LTD the company is going to want DAL type health insurace which we believe is inferior. Also you have to see this from the company point of view, etc, etc , etc.

DAL LTD is 100% paid for by the company. That’s why it’s taxable. Ours is a 80/20 or 70/30
split using post tax dollars that’s why our benefit is tax free.

What’s it worth to protect our pilots from the catastrophic career ending (or for an extended period of time) LTD? It wouldn’t go up that much, plus we could negotiate a bigger portion to be paid by the company.

FYI - both Spirit and JetBlue have the pilot option to purchase individually up to 15K per month. I’d be open to the pilot option to pay extra because it’s worth alot for me.

I’ll run some numbers later and post. Remember our MEC R&I Chairman (arguable the most knowledgeable on this subject) stated to me he’d also much prefer DAL’s LTD vs ours. He said that from the perspective of what best for the entire UAL pilot group not a certain segment.

It was refreshing to have a subject matter expert from the MEC not sell or a sugar coat the LTD in the TA. He was honest and said the DAL LTD is much better and if we want it changed in TA 2 (if the TA is rejected) let your LEC reps know because they direct the NC on what to attain. Thus me starting this thread. Good on Fred Greene for being honest and not selling this POS.

The problem with negotiating a contract is that you become very attached to what the fruits of your labor are. I’ve had to deal with it before when I had a hand in negotiating two contracts at the regionals. When I was a Rep at one of my regional carriers, we had some serious concessions that we gave the Company. The most serious was baseball style arbitration for pay. I was told by my NC Chairman that I had better get behind this TA because he needed to retire. My answer to him was that I would not “get behind” any TA. My job was to simply explain how provisions within the TA would affect my constituents. That is all!!! No sales job, just information. BTW we fought hard to remove ANY conditional language (i.e. may, might elect to, etc.) because that actually protects both sides.

Moral to the story is that there should be no sales job, but that ends up happening because we’re human. So that needs to guarded against!!!

Fadec is on a roll. I can’t wait for the next fish to bite.

Someone tell grandpa what a troll is. Fadec randomly posts something of value but 9/10 it is off the wall trolling.

DAL could make the 100% company paid Ltd a taxable benefit. Making the benefit tax free upon receiving it. At f9 we can do this annually during open enrollment. It’s a pretty nice provision. You decide if the 100% company paid benefit is taxable or not.

The option to buy up is nice. Let’s those that want it buy up while keeping premiums down (for those making it taxable).

Why pilots here aren't clamoring for Delta's LTD is beyond me. They're a direct competitor and there's no reason we shouldn't have it, too. Do better, United pilots.

Thank you! Got to tell you I’m really disheartened by the lack of response on this thread.

I view our pathetic LTD in this TA just as important (no more no less) as every other substandard part of this totally concessionary
TA. We deserve just as much as DAL gets. Their LTD was negotiated in their current contract from 2016. Wait till they blow us away with all the gains in the contract being negotiated now. Those saying there DAL and we can’t afford it is total BS. We don’t deserve one penny less then DAL.

You never think you’ll need LTD till your on it. How egregious that in this TA you get half of the retirement component as DAL gets now and that’s after getting nada, a big fat zero for the first three years on LTD.

There’s no reason if this TA fails (I’m starting to get a bad felling this POS nay actually pass) LTD can’t be added to the already large list of improvements in TA-2.

So fellow UAL pilots please tell me. Is that lack of response on the thread agreement that our TA LTD is woefully in adequate and must be changed in TA-2 or nobody gives a sh*t?

I think most are just waiting until the 15th so we can get to work, recall, and clean house so we can get paid. Clearly, we're not being well represented. Our LTD and sick leave are both a disgrace. Delta sick starts at 50 hours and goes up 25 hours per year maxing at 270 hours. Use or lose each year. We get 60 hours. There is so much in this contract that is a joke. Fly the contract.

Agreed, thanks for your post.