Estimated pay
 

I know the pay rates are on the airline profiles, but I’m just trying to get a no BS comparison of apples to apples. Being a commuter to Newark, not looking to pick up any extra fly, what is a new hire likely to bring home 1st year WB, 2end year WB, 3rd year 73 capt. (If that’s still available by then). How many days off would you average during that time? In that scenario would you basically be on reserve all that time? Is it better to bid a NB right from the start for QOL? How many days off a month would you have then?

Take your preferred widebody and multiply year one and two monthly pay rates by 73. That'll be your pay because you'll be on reserve. Take 737 captain rate and multiply monthly rate by 73, because you'll be on reserve for that too (probably). You'll get 12/13 days off a month being on reserve.

Given the option, you'll absolutely want to bid 737/320, especially as a commuter.

Considering the contract negotiations happening in just about every carrier, I wouldn't base my decision on year 2+ pay.

Ok thanks for the info!

To add to that, it might be hard to get the 500 hours required to upgrade at year 3 on WB reserve. You may have to downgrade to NB FO and build up some time before upgrading. Depending on where you live, that could be a really rough 6 (guess) years on reserve. But if you’re 24, probably doesn’t matter.

Wow so in two years in a wide body you still wouldn’t reach 500hr. Is that not getting used and your at home more or when you fly somewhere the overnight are that long. I wish I was 24 again!

Home if you live in Short Call range or you call your crash pad home. Or DHing to do 1 leg etc etc. WB FOs on reserve can also be rolled into days off so you have that bonus going for you…..

Well, if you’re not that young, you should have the option to avoid a WB. And as a commuter, most would advise to go to a NB. Pay is the same year one regardless.

How many hours does a WB FO typically get in a year? Say on a 777 out of SFO if it varies. And are there trips usually available to aggressively pick up?

I hope you realize that if you are on 4+ year captain pay at a regional, you'll make more money staying there than you will moving to United as a 737 FO until you upgrade. Look at the numbers. And there are many, many people who got stuck in the right seat for 10-15 years before they could upgrade.

Not many realize that regional (non-DEC) captains make more than their peers who are NB mainline FO's right now. (By peers, I mean two people who started flying for the regionals at the same time, one stayed and the other jumped to United).

Although partially true, that ^^^^^^^^^ is some twisted logic and mental masturbation to get there.

Unless they are 63ish and considering making the switch:cool:

Assuming no upgrade here are the 5 year numbers:

Major FO - 642k + 103k retirement = 745k

CA Regional (year 4- 8) 751k + 46.7k = 797.7k


* Retirement for regional is the companies 5% contribution (years 4 and 5) and after year 5 the added 2% direct contribution added to the regular 5% matching. This is the Horizon & Skywest contract and I also believe AA's wholly owned.

Totals at Year 6

Major FO 796k - 127.4k = 923.4k

Regional CA 913k - 58k = 971k

That ^^^^ looks bad when you use payrates for a carrier that has a new improved contract to UAL which is 4 years in arrears. So, I think it logical to add 20% minimum to the UAL rates. There is a chance of a recession and NO deal at the majors ....but in that case, what would happen to the commuters and their pay rates/contracts? I could cherry pick some logical assumptions on UAL seat/pay and the calculus would tilt in UAL favor by a wide margin. But, as they say, pay/money is only part of the equation.

Buck Rogers

I will go back and use the numbers from the AK contract to paint a more competitive picture. And obviously the regional rates way more capped than what your going to get at the majors. Once one upgrades at a major the numbers aren't even close but again, how long does upgrade take can vary so much that this was just a 6 year head to head NB FO vs regional CA with basic payrate + retirement.

I have the other view in a time of recession and think the model used during covid may play out more - Use the 76 seaters more, park the NB's and pay those junior FO's/CA's to sit at the house at a reduced rate. But I wouldn't bet a dime on that theory and I'd think it would be based on how much the government aids the airlines, if any this time around.

Um , no regional is gonna be around with those rates in 6 years. No major is gonna absorb those costs. Absolutely no reason to have somebody else do it for that.

NB FO (73 credits
5 years based off AK new contract
87.6k / 14k
140.1k / 22.4k
163k / 26.1k
169k / 27k
176k / 28k
735.7k + 117.5k

CA Regional (year 4- 8) 751k + 46.7k

6 year totals =

NB FO 181k/29k for total of 916.7k / retirement 146.5k

Regional CA 913k / 58k

I just finished my first year on the 777 in SFO, all on reserve and I logged 357 hours. As far as APUing trips it depends. If you like 2 day red eyes to EWR with a 11 hour day sleep those are typically readily available. Good luck picking up anything to Europe or SYD - AKL. Those do not sit in open time for very long and the list of pilots that desire those trips is quite extensive most of the time.

Ok. So what is the public ideas on a mid forty’s 6th year FO at AK that could probably hold a junior CA spot? Stay put, or jump to UA? Said pilot no longer wants to live in any AK base. But would likely move to a commute at UA.

Skywest is making a profit now.


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JetDoc,

Are you a commuter or Living in base .
On an average can you say how many days off did you get and in blocks off?
Thanks in advance.

Dimps.

The rates just started. Do the math. They have contracts with majors. They will pass that cost on when they are renewed. Every major has said they are shrinking their regional feed drastically. In a few years there will be half as many regional flights so to this and pilot shortage. Long term doesn't look good for any regional.

On reserve you're always going to get the same amount of days off 12/13. You get one stretch of 6 days off a month. I live in base and even when I picked up I've never been used more than 13 days worth of trips in a month. I haven't been to the airport for work in over a month, sometimes people get lucky.

As a long time RJ guy, I get why some folks want to stay at their regional. But if a young person says they’ll be better off at their regional than at a mainline carrier…we’ll just look at Expressjet/ASA…they were long standing regional’s that - well went out of business with 55-60 year old pilots that “couldn’t afford to leave”.
I left a RJ company that I was senior at and lived in base…But once that company had no flying contract after a said date…I knew I had to make a change.
Your career will never be secure at an RJ company!
Even if the pay (right now seems to be better - the reality IS THAT IT WON’T BE LONG)

You are way better off at a Mainline Company…regardless of what the short term outlook seems.

are those 12 to 13 days off consecutive? also can you choose widebosy as a new hire? what are chances of getting 777 sfo base as a new hire with no WB experience. Only 73 4500 hours.

the junior people have been getting 777 SFO because it’s the only thing left. If you don’t get it in indoc. You can get it the next vacancy. And, no, you won’t get all 12 days in a row

I live in base.
In May, June and July I worked nearly every day of every RAP and got rolled into a RDO once. The rest of the months, two maybe three trips but I'll APU short calls to send myself back down to the bottom of the silo.
As far as hard days off you'll get 12 or 13 depending in the month but with unused days of reserve maybe 16-17

What fleet?

Thanks a lot JetDoc,

So as a commuter i guess it can be a bit of an issue?
Also are you able to get 10 + days off in a row.

Cheers,
Just trying to make an informed decision.

Dimps

Commuting to reserve on any fleet is no bueno. Getting 10 days off in a row on reserve is not possible unless you are GUM 737.

There's no logic twisted. Two people start at Skywest. Two years to gain 1000 SIC, two years to gain 1000 TPIC, and they are now on Year 5 pay. One pilot decides to jump to mainline and is on the 737. That pilot will make (in wages only per the OP's question) less than the pilot who stayed at SkyWest.

I'm only talking wages because that's what the OP was concerned about - a drop in personal cash flow.

except a year on they’ll make 737 captain pay and blow the Skywest lifer out of the water.

Maybe these higher rates work - how much of the cost pie is pilot labor? If pilot labor doubles but is only 5% of the total cost....

It may still be cheaper to put a 76 seater on a route with expensive regional pilots than a half empty -700 with the same paid pilots.

At this point, the only reason a mainline aircraft isn’t on every route is because there aren’t enough of them. I haven’t flown in an airplane in nearly a year that wasn’t full or close to it. There are obviously BFE exceptions out there that an RJ will be needed, but that seems to be vastly the exception to the rule at the moment.

If you think pilot labor is only 5% paying $200 an hr on a 76 seater you need to do some research.

Wait how cheap do you think the hourly operating cost of a 76 seater is? I’m gonna guess pilots are comfortably less than 5% of total hourly cost.

76 X $200 a ticket for let’s say an hour flight = $15,200. Let’s say $100 an hour Fo and $200 Ca = 2%. It gets weird with longer legs, first class tickets, Lease, Mx fees, FA pay, oversold ticket,and what ever else. $300 /15k = 1.9%

Way more then 5% of overall costs. You pay somebody $200 then you match for taxes, benefits , etc.

You aren't getting anywhere near $200 a ticket. Think about what UAL takes, taxes, etc.

it was a hypothetical, Einstein. My point was totally lost on you.

Do you think the cost difference between a full 76er and a half empty -700 is less than the $100/hr regional wage jump?

Put another way, those regional pilot pay raises increased ticket costs about $2 per passenger, per flight. Divide $2 by the average ticket price to see how much of a total impact it was.

I checked the Google Flight prices of one-way tickets for some regional routes and the majority are about $200. If your travel is super flexible, you might be able to get some <$100 one way tickets, but that's the exception, not the norm. Flying out of your local, small town airport has a convenience fee that is significantly higher than the highly competitive hub-to-hub markets that have been competed down to razor thin margins. I lived in podunk military towns and routinely drove 4+ hours to a hub to fly anywhere because I couldn't afford the convenience fee that tripled my plane ticket cost if I flew from my local airport.

I think the regionals have not been the razor thin operation everyone has been led to believe and wages were so low because, well, people were willing to work under those conditions. Now, most regional pilots can do basic math and see that the pay raises and bonuses for staying at a regional come at a heavy cost of seniority at a career destination, so legacy management is trying to figure out if it's worth increasing ticket costs (or letting the costs eat into profit) $2,3,maybe $5, to keep the model alive, at least until they can work out the logistics of an alternative.

Realistically, it's likely in the near future it'll be normal for 1,500 hour pilots to go straight to the legacies, skipping the regionals altogether, so I think the legacies are going to have to take some notes from the regionals and be prepared to train pilots with varied backgrounds who've never flown jets before. Also, I've never flown with an FO who was an idiot, but I've flown with quite a few low-time FOs who didn't know what they didn't know and spooked me. So, brace yourselves.