QOL for TK Instructors
 

Curious what the life is like of a TK Instructor or other positions in the training dept for someone who wants to live in DEN but be home every night. Pay, days worked, overall QOL....

The good: Pay is capped at 9 year WBFO which is great if you’re junior. If you live local it’s a very efficient job meaning not a lot of time away for your paycheck. This is optimal if you have small kids and babies on the way. Or maybe you have a lot of hobbies.

The bad: you don’t fly much and your proficiency suffers. RSV has been relentless as of recent because we have been short on instructors and hiring non stop.

The ugly: spool up is rough the first 3-6 months as it’s a large academic load to take on initially. But after about 2 years in the building it gets very monotonous as you teach the same material and events over and over.

How many days off do instructors normally have? In a similar vein, are all the other flight ops side gigs/management jobs at the TK, or is everything not explicitly training related based in Chicago?

I can only speak of TK; 12-13 days off and 2-3 “fly days” a months. Don’t have to fly on your fly days but by the end of the year you should have 30 fly days in.

I’m going on year 2 at TK now and I really like it still. It’s nice being able to actually build some friendships that last longer than 4 days. I agree that it does start to get monotonous doing a CQMV for the 100th time.

There’s tons of gigs that aren’t in the TK. Special assignment can be in the CPO or downtown chicago or
Even on occasion from home. Flight manager roles are always in the CPO and some downtown, they are scarce openings and def not for everyone.

Can you shine some light on the process to get into TK? I'm assuming off probation but is that pretty much it? The TK work interests me but it also seems like for someone who has other side hobbies/projects outside of work it may be a better lifestyle to bid reserve if you live in base and try and not fly, although it sounds like staffing is closing the door to that tactic. Can you get more than 12-13 off if you wanted? How many hours are you crediting per month and at what pay rate is TK paid?

Only time you get more than 12-13 days off is vacation months. You can’t drop events. You can’t drop reserve days. Trading can only be done between pilots via email. There is no CCS/crew companion functionality that the line pilots have.

If you live within 30-40 minutes of TK, have little kids or maybe some health issues it can be a really good gig. Outside of that it’s likely going to be what you make of it.

You apply online - probably already have most of it done as it was required for new hires to fill out after getting a CJO.

Read section 23 of the contract. TK instructors bid for days off currently using an in house bidding system but are transitioning to PBS shortly. You can’t get extra days off…but working more is always an option. MPG is 90 hours and you earn every penny of it most days. Most instructors feel that PBS is going to be pretty punitive for junior commuters. Locals within 60 minutes of TK are probably living a pretty good life. There is no automated trading system for instructors as trading events right now is at discretion of the company and finding someone else willing to trade. Depending on the commute it is easy to lose several days off per month to accommodate RSV and the UPA commuter policy.

Pay is pretty good for a junior pilot but you have to account for local living expenses which eats into the higher MPG pretty quickly. The first year and any time you are training for an additional qualification is a grind. Most find themselves putting in 2-3x the amount of work relative to the students. You have to learn the briefings…you have to learn the scripts…you have to learn multiple different operating systems for the sims. After that you start learning where all the common mistakes are and what different backgrounds present different challenges. Aka- CRJ and Mil pilots typically struggle with automation. Bus pilots have to learn how to fly again etc.

TK is probably the closest a United pilot may get to being part of a military ready room. You will make friends and see different personalities and teaching styles. You will also run into instructors that have been in TK too long and are phoning in the job.

I’d only take the job right now if you have a passion for teaching or have small kids in the house AND live local. NB CA pay and finding a cheaper place outside some of our other bases is likely going to net the same income and be an easier job. This is why resignations were so high last year and unless they pay folks what they can hold it will be difficult to retain instructors much longer as TUMI 2 or 3 gets negotiated.

Great information, thanks. Living in DEN only 15 min from TK right now which is why it's so intriguing to me. I admittedly do have a lot of hobbies and side gigs outside of work so looking to optimize QOL for sure....I do have the passion for teaching but we'll have to see. Thanks for the info

I work way more in TK than when I was flying the line. If it’s not best held in the new contract, there will be a mass exodus back to the line, mostly in Denver.

I'm going to guess if TUMI2.0 continues to drag on there's going to be a good sized flow out of the building after vacation selection also.

Do you need to be DEN base? How is it for someone whose base is EWR? Thank you in advance.

I don’t know why you’d ever commute to TK. It’s good as a local but you will be gone a ton as a commuter.

You can commute, but hotels and commuting are on you.
The only benefit as a commuter for TK is that all your currency fly days (30 NB, 36 WB) are based out of DEN. So if you pick up a trip from EWR, for example, that is a EWR turn, they have to build a DH DEN-EWR_____EWR-DEN, and those DH’s count as fly days. So a commuter can turn 1 day of flying into 3 fly days.

That’s the only benefit I can think of as a commuter. Cons are you’re commuting to a job that allows you to be home every night for local pilots. To me that doesn’t seem worth it but to each his own

So just to confirm it's 30/36 fly days per year? It really sounds like if you enjoy the teaching then this is a gold mine for someone who lives in the DEN area to sleep in their own bed every night and make decent money while they build some seniority on property

Ask some of the near-new hire TK instructors how their schedules are. My understanding is that they can be pretty rough.

Sure, if you like months of 12 days off working all 2000-0200 or 0400-1000 shifts on weekends as many that are junior do. Once you get Senior you get better schedules but then you would make more $ on the line, with more days off and better working hours.

This is why there has been an exodus leaving in last year or 2, and without a new contract in next couple of months I expect that exodus to continue or even grow.

Kinda hijacking this thread but It pertains to TK intstructing.

Is is possible to put a paper bid in for a different Seat/Plane while in TK? IE: 767 PI bids for 737 CA, still intends to teach for the time being.

Does it have any benefit/cons to do so?

yes, that’s how it works. You have a “paper bid”. That’s where you would go if you quit or get fired from TK.

I view TK as a great spot for junior pilots in DEN who like to teach, but time will tell. If you’re a senior FO who commutes, I don’t personally understand the decision, but maybe I will when I’m senior.

What pay rate would a FO fresh off probation be paid at for TK work?

Currently, 2nd year widebody pay, 90 hours guarantee, $810 /mo override.

Based on being senior to the most junior widebody FO in this case.

Not bad, but it does sound like you earn every penny. Hopefully that's increased soon in the new contract

I personally never understood the “you can make much more money on the line”. You absolutely could make more money on the line, but you’re gonna work for it. By my calculations, I would have to work an 80 hour line as a 737 captain to make the same amount as an instructor. Plus if I pick up some overtime, it makes the difference even smaller.

Override increases to $1250 once you achieve higher quals.

Aside from potentially "having to work harder" is there any reason a junior FO who lives 15 minutes from TK shouldn't try and become an instructor?

The pilot 1 number jr to me in base February:

15 days off
89:54 line
306:55 TAFB
$26,764 base + $814 PD = $27,578

TK in February:

13 days off
90:00 line
$1285 override
$22,292 base + $1285 OR = $23,292

Math says $4,286 more in February on the line then in TK, and with 2 more days off. That’s TK making more than $51,000 less per year with 15-20 days off less per year. Sure you can pick up OT right now at TK, if you did the max of 3 OT you would then match the $ of the 15 day off line, but would then only have 10 days off vs 15.

Yeah I agree, again you CAN do better on the line. However if you are not a commuter, I am either home every day for drop off or pick up for the kids. I make about as much as an 80 hour line captain. Even though I am “working” more days, I have way more quality time at home with that family. I’ll go ski a half day in the mountains and come back for a 1600 for my event.
if your local (and close) it’s completely worth it if you like instructing. I would never understand commuting to it though.

If you like denver, have small kids, and/or need to be home every night then TK is a great gig.

Well, sure, the paycheck is more.

That TAFB though.........

I rarely did more than 300/mo when I was at the regionals with 14 days off a month.

Now toss in if that 300+ TAFB is a commuter.

My buddies at TK have way, WAY more time at home than the average line slug.

Commuting to the TK job would also skew those metrics.

It's more an apples to oranges comparison really.

I don’t disagree with you, I was just responding to the poster who specifically said he didn’t understand the making less then line argument. PIs only, as they are the only pilots pay capped at this airline, generally trade $ for time at home. I’ve done both PI and line, there are different with each having pluses and minuses.

A bit of clarification:

Some people were saying at TK you have 12-13 days off, it's 13, period. 13 plus fly days. For NB, you get 2-3 Fly days a month and WB gets roughly 3 days per month, but sometimes TK gives 0 fly days for WB guys in some months, then 6 Fly days in other months.

Pros:
1) To equate it to the line, this is a senior-type day turn schedule. If that's what you like, you will like the schedule. Do 0400/2200 sim periods stink? Yep, they do, but some guys choose a whole line of these events and have a side gig. I suspect these people are vampires or don't sleep as these event times are brutal when u get a string of them.
2) Even as a junior TK instructor, you can typically get 2 weekends off a month. Throw in a vacation every 2nd or 3rd month, and depending on vacation weeks thru the year, you can average 2.5 weekends off a month. You will not get this as a lineholder in most NB bases until you are above 50%. The scheduling rules are "more fair" and seniority mostly only helps you with your schedule build and overtime.
3) Vacation weeks: summer goes junior. To keep it simple, in a month with vacation, you basically get an extra 5 days off that month. So instead of working 15-16 events, you only have to work 10-11 events. You also aren't affected by FAR 117 while teaching, so if you desired to front load or backload your schedule like you can do out in GUM, that is a possibility. So work 10 days, get the next 20 off (if you got ahead on fly days or you can do them before the end of the year).
4) Trading is easy for NB instructors: We have about 270 instructors on the 737. I almost never see a trade request that isn't filled in the same day. It's easy to trade.
5) You will learn more about SOP on your aircraft than most care to know
6) You get to know fellow pilots on your fleet better and go to the 3 day standards meeting with them once a year.
7) You want to coach a kid's team, you will probably be able to manipulate your schedule to do so.
8) You get to fly whatever trips you want by FBO as long as the lineholder allows it. This is great for someone junior that might be flying a lot of undesirable trips anyway.
9) Pay equates to a reserve CA pay.
10) Flexibility is huge since you can be given 3-4 fly days in a month. You can choose to fly 0 days during that month and make those days up in another month. Or you can get ahead on fly days early in the year and basically give yourself more days off in schedules later in the year.
11) You are guaranteed Thanksgiving day, Christmas day, and New Years day off. Those days off are in addition to your 13 days off each month.

Cons:
1) Everyone does Reserve days from time to time no matter seniority, so everyone can get tagged for something at a time they would prefer not to work (but you can trade reserve days for a guaranteed sim lesson)
2) 13 days off isn't a lot and it can wear on you
3) Flying skills do suffer since most average less than 90 hrs a year
4) While teaching is rewarding, most will agree it's not as "fun" as flying. However, you also don't have to deal with weather, ATC, passengers except when flying 2-3 days a month.
5) Work becomes more political
6) If you can hold weekends and holidays off on the line, you will likely have better pay and time off on the line.

this is all great info. Thanks! Just to confirm, the 13 days off include fly days……so it’s not 13 days off but you use 3 of those to fly?

13 days off. Fleets will schedule additional days for flying pro rated for the annual requirements. Can’t go below 10 days off to fly or work overtime.

No, you always get 13 days off (unless prorated lower by military leave or some other PLA)
You get fly days on top of the 13 days off.

So if you get 3 fly days for the month, you actually get 16 days off.

However you are expected to either fly those 3 days off during that month, or make up those 3 fly days somewhere else during the year.

You will be given 30/36 (NB/WB) Fly days every year. You can fly them in the month you are given them, or during another month throughout the year.
Deadhead from DEN-EWR or DEN-SFO in order to be in place counts as a day of flying as well, and you get PS First Class to do so, unless you DH deviate.

It can be hard to play catch up since we can't go less than 10 days off per month.
However, you can use vacation months to catch up as you can do fly days over vacation.

With those numbers I'm assuming that pilot is a captain (seeing as I don't see any FO seat that pay $298/hr), so of course someone on a captain payscale is making more than someone capped at 9 year FO.

I think the people talking about the money are far junior to you. You can either work 90 hour lines as a 737 FO at e.g. ~172/hr or you can work 90 hour months in TK at $213/hr. Who do you think makes more in that scenario?

Literally every PI currently at TK can hold 320, 737, or 756 Captain on the line.

Every one of them I know is waiting for a contract, if it doesn’t come soon, many are bailing.

Agreed, many waiting till vacation bid to be over. Also have heard some say they need an AIP or at least significant progress by Easter.