There are 300 contract changes in this TA. According to AR, they run about 280-20 in favor of the pilots. THAT’s what we used the manpower leverage for. Not for a signing bonus… although a buck twenty and change is sure gonna be nice, I’ll admit. 😎 But 10.2B is what’s up. That’s more than DAL. More than AAL. That’s why you’ll see a fat passing percentage on this TA come Oct 1. I guarantee it.

To the malcontents… DAL is still hiring.

The problem is that it takes away leverage from us. MCO and LAS were a result of trying to fill unfilled captain vacancies. Now they won’t have to open a base in BOS, SEA, AUS, etc to try to get people to upgrade.

Sadly, our leverage gets whacked at every turn, and those who only see $$ will never understand it. The number one contractual provision that has led to more disunity, reduction of leverage, and “all about me” thinking is…….. ADD PAY.. Yes, I said it. Add pay puts bandaids on onerous contractual qol issues, and allows the company to pit us against each other in the hunger games of add pay chasing. Meanwhile, strict prohibitions/protections in section 20 simply won’t ever happen as long as this mindset exists. The street Captain issue is simply one more piece of leverage flushed down the toilet.

Here’s the problem with your argument though - No matter what, someone is getting the shaft. Contract passes = Junior pilots taking the first possible upgrade to captain go to undesirable bases (the horror!). Contract doesn’t pass = The company may move vacancies to more desirable bases. This, by your own admission, stunts the relative seniority for people already in base at those undesirable bases.

The thing is though, anyone who is still in those “undesirable” bases who are senior enough to hold a more “desirable” base are staying for a reason. The reason is that it’s more desirable to *them*. Desirable vs undesirable is a personal choice. Most people don’t find EWR to be an island made of candy where rainbows always shine, but to the many pilots who live on the east coast, they wouldn’t give it up for anything.

Looking at your post history you’ve been here less than a year. So, essentially what you seem to saying is “screw the more senior people with established seniority in their base. I want to ‘get mine’ in a more desirable location”.

Also, looking at your post history, you were throwing similar temper tantrums this time last year when you were at Alaska (and a newbie there as well) when their TA came out and said you’d leave if it passed. Well, apparently you chased the golden ring over to United where it also looks like you’re not going to get what you want. Will you be applying to Delta next? Or, is beating your chest over TAs as a new guy just the thing that you do?

I would be much more likely to take an upgrade if I didn’t have to commute. I’m not commuting to narrow body reserve. Just because you walked uphill both ways to school in the snow doesn’t mean I should have to as well.

HMMM add pay,
I'm sure the majority of pilots are "capitalists". They want to make more money if they choose to work smarter, harder or longer or things go south with the operation whilst on a trip.
Some pilots lean more "socialist" and would prefer to have everyone make the same pay(same seat, category) and have an equal distribution of work.
The capitalist views it as my choice, my pay not your concern. The socialists view it as less productivity equals more pilots which means an increase in my individual seniority and I'll make more pay eventually that way.

It is a conundrum. LUV is basically fly to FAR limits and that's the only pay governor. Delta has numerous ways to really capitalize on add pay and they have the capability to have $800,000 months(albeit only 1 individual) and numerous $1M year captains 7 or 8 years ago with the old pay rates. UAL has the most restrictive of the 3 to boost one's pay above and beyond the "standard". There are very few extremes at UAL. Some add pay will always be needed to remunerate the disadvantaged pilot due to events beyond the companies control. Other times, add pay is a type of abuse governor in an attempt to change company behavior.

Personally, I think it's a bit myopic to paint all "add pay" as bad, and those individuals as participants in the "hunger games". It's merely participating in the "game of life" as we know it in America.

BTW The company is hiring as fast as they can. I personally don't feel getting them to agree to less productivity(resulting in even more hiring) was a realistic option. The result was "add pay" as the negotiated middle of the road.

So, EWR(coastal/undesirable) only 3 unfilled captains. DEN(interior/desirable/senior) 10 unfilled captains.

Overall only 37 unfilled captains as opposed to 150+ on previous bids.

FOMO? .

by the next 2-3 vacancy bids and the new CPA settles in , I expect 2-3 years to upgrade

Proof perfect that
1. QOL is vastly improved on this contract.
2. passage is a forgone conclusion.

y’all enjoy YOUR new contract.

Denver isn’t surprising at all. I’d be interested to see how many of those CA upgrades are commuters from nearby places, vs living in Denver proper.

if I lived anywhere near Denver, I’d be at TK in a heartbeat with this contract.

why fly a 90 hour line, or sit 73 hours reserve when you can just go in for 6 hours and get 90 hours of CA pay. Work a few extra days and get almost 130? Yeah

I would argue the company opened up those bases to lure people from other airlines. Furthermore, they WILL most likely open up other bases as the flying (and market) dictates.

As most of us who live in base realize (the company included), people want to live where they also fly. Different job when you’re driving to work.

Reviewed all podcasts, LAX and and the online panel roadshow. Just voted.

May or not be my last contract but before we get another chance at this, it is most likely will be a downturn sooner than we wish, and another black swan event cannot be ruled out

Even if we go gangbusters for the next 5 years Guarantee next time we will be negotiating single pilot ops. It is inevitable. Forget Captain vacancies, a temporary anomaly.

Hope I made the right decision.

Then don’t. Nobody is crying for you.

I was more speaking to the lack of unity the add pay issue creates. There’s no question that it does. As far as capitalist/socialist, I see what you’re trying to say, I just think it’s kinda ironic, and requires all kinds of mental gymnastics to say one doesn’t like a collective philosophy, while at the same time knowing that without our collective bargaining agent on the property, this job would suck. Quite a conundrum.

You make a fair point about the base desirability being relative, but my point is that the balance/distribution of opportunity that exists now will not exist in the future. You also completely ignore the possibility/fact that some people will stay in a base they desire less in order to maintain a higher relative seniority/hold a line etc. It really doesn't make a difference to me because I live in a base which is likely to remain junior, in fact my relative seniority will probably benefit from the fallout of this, so all your postulating about me saying "screw the senior people" couldn't be more misplaced. It seems more like a doxing threat and personal attack instead of a logical rebuttal. The senior people in the traditionally low-vacancy bases will suffer from stagnation if this passes.

Yes it's extremely frustrating to see 2 separate pilot groups making the same mistakes just a year apart. It took about all of 2 months for those guys to realize the mistakes they made, and attrition there has gotten much worse. Guess I was totally wrong about that too...

Proof it’s vastly improved? You know essentially the entire airline is available to fill those vacancies but still chose not to, right?

The fact that unfilled vacancies remain is not necessarily proof the TA is not improved either.

Old farts like myself look at what we have for QoWL today and like what we see because we have perspective from a time when life as a junior pilot was quite different. Younger pilots today don't share that same perspective and have very different expectations as regards QoWL. Nothing wrong with that in my mind, but again, I do not see that as evidence that the current TA is not an improvement over what we have today. Clearly, the word "vastly" is a matter of opinion and not "provable, but I think one can safely say the TA does offer SOME QoWL improvements.

Six more days... and it's time to party. This slam dunk is gonna pass like green grass. Like it, love it, or hate it.... You better learn it, because you're gonna live it. For the next 6 years or so.... if we're lucky. Contract 2000 lasted 2 years. singing... Go on take the money and run, WOO HOO HOO

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/02/b...ncessions.html

Article has a paywall.

guppie can afford it….or hasn’t he told you yet?

Really, attrition at Alaska has gotten worse? Oh wait, much worse, sorry. Care to back that up with any data? It is actually about the same. Like we thought, you are one of those that will complain wherever you go. The number of pilots we are losing to FedEx and UPS has dropped to zero!

yes, attrition is still and issue and the company has actually communicated that they are talking with the MEC about what they think will fix the issue. Not trying to do it themselves as usual. But you keep on complaining. Let us know what sucks at Delta when you get there next year.

I don’t have access to the numbers anymore but you do. I know that it was a fact before I left and that it’s even discussed on the ALA podcast in April or June.

And, maybe you aren’t losing peoples to FDX and UPS BECAUSE THEY STOPPED HIRING! Lol
UPS is even offering early retirement!

You voted in an objectively sub-par contract and if the management over there weren’t “kind enough” to go above and beyond that joke of a snap up clause you’d be even further behind. You KNOW it’s bad when mgmt agrees to give you more money when they don’t have to! I don’t think you want to be in this thread claiming to be any kind of authority because less than a year ago you proved you aren’t. Everyone with internet access can see you made a bad deal and were defending it! Laughable.

The only thing laughable around here is you. I know FedEx and UPS are not hiring. Not hiring and offering early retirements during a pilot shortage. Think about that for a second.

We did. It vote in a sub-or contract. We voted in the contract our NC could negotiate at the time. They made some important critical gains. Doubt you have the brains to figure out what those were. After that the Union did not just spike by the football and go home. They kept fighting. Got us a significant pay raise that was not contractual. They are still fighting for improvements. What are you doing? Running from shop to shop until someone makes you happy.

…so you were making a joke where you were the punchline? Good one.

What you still can’t seem to grasp after all that has taken place is that you voted in a sub par contract because that’s all the NC could get WITHOUT A NO VOTE! If it was voted down (like united) then the Delta rates would have come out a few weeks later and the NC could have likely gotten you much more (like United did). You cant see that just by looking at what your peers have done but I’m the one without brains. Riiiiiiight. Or maybe you can clearly see that you sold yourself short and you are desperately trying to justify your shortsighted, impulsive, fear-based decision which history has proven to be wrong.

You don’t know anything about me, where I’ve been and what I’ve done. Im just trying to provide some insight to help this pilot group. Not sure why you’re even here if you don’t work for UAL.

Since you posted this, post your background and current position. Do you work at United?
I'll go first to make it easy. Ex-mil, hired at United more than 20 years ago. NB CA at United.

Please make sure to respond or I will continue to ask you to post your background and current position.

LOL no thanks. I did not say that to appear as some kind of authority. It was because some dip**** made grossly incorrect assumptions about my career and career choices.
While your ultra-vague self disclosures are a nice token gesture, I couldn't give you a meaningful CV without essentially doxing myself. Besides that it's irrelevant to the conversation entirely.

You try to come off as some Nostradomas with your 'prescient' views of the future, but in reality you're likely some kid who got hired at Alaska within the last couple of years, threw a hissy fit and left after the new contract was voted in, when you got hired at United early this year.

I'll go out on a limb and guess you're someone young and new to the airline world, yet dispense your 'wisdom' as if you know all of the ups and downs of the business. Chances are, you've only seen the good side of this industry. That's great, I'm happy for you. But at some point, dark days will return.

I'm just a dumb old guy, but I consider the current TA to have more QoL gains than any previous contract since I've been on property. And that includes C2K (my first contract here) ... that was almost exclusively a money contract with very few QoL gains. I'm not saying that current days are better than pre-9/11, but what has been given away due to BK and the decade of privation have been very difficult to regain. The fact that we're getting a bit of that back in this contract is huge in my book.

....filler

Haha, every single assumption you've made about me has been completely wrong.

What is it with you guys where you want to make all kinds of assumptions about people you disagree with? I guess you feel you can ignore the facts that are being shoved in your face and tell yourself "well yeah, but they haven't seen what I've seen. They're just a dumb kid with no industry experience.". You're focusing on the person (incorrectly might I add) instead of the argument, because, well, you can't confront the argument. Im not going to say that you are dumb, but your response defintiely is.

All one needs to do is look at your post history and draw the same conclusions as what I wrote.
Here's your second post on APC, in the Alaska subforum dated 9/28/22:
Your first five posts on APC were in the Alaska subforum. You started posting in the United subforum on 9/19/23.

But sure, I'm completely wrong about you. :rolleyes: So are you not telling the truth now, or were you not telling the truth on all of your Alaska subforum posts last year?

Not some kid.
Not at all new to the airline world.
No hissy fit thrown, made a career decision based on geography, earning potential and career opportunity. App was in for years beforehand.
Seen plenty of the bad side of the industry.
Probably have more experience than you with airline negotiations.

"within the last couple of years" was correct but that wasn't an assumption, was it? You can obviously see that, its in the public record. Congratulations you can read.

Again you're choosing to focus on the person and not the argument because you are unable to produce anything but unjustified, sensationalized, incorrect, irrelevant personal attacks.

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people. -Eleanor Roosevelt

Ad hominem attacks to justify your position means your position lacks the evidence to support it any other way, that or you’re just a bad person.

To repeat again. This TA has the most QOL improvements since I have been hired at United more than 20 years ago. But that's not good enough for you and some others here.

It is humorous how my response to your failure to answer what your background experience is would be considered a personal attack. And you still come back with a veiled response as to your wisdom in this matter.

Tell ya what ... how about you or anyone else post which previous United contract in the last 25 years had better QOL improvements. You and a few others here seek perfect. Perfect is never going to happen.

I specifically asked his experience/expertise to make such predictions. He has provided nothing to prove that he's an expert on anything. Perhaps you believe him. I don't.
I reconstructed his work history based on his post history to show there's zero evidence of him being an expert on anything involving airlines and contracts.

You are also more than welcome to postt when United has had more QOL gains in a contract in the last 25 years.

Imma try something.

Though I disagree with your position on the contract, I respect your position, it is logical and reasonable. Here are the reasons why I disagree with you. Reason 1 Blah blah blah blah…

That’s it. No discredit, no ad hominem , no false flag, true Scotsman, straw man, no sour, slander.

Oh. TheMitigator, I apologize; I forgot you were there. You may go now.

Andy... looks like we agree on the TA. Don't worry. All the no voters will be "forced" into a new contract at the end of the week. This beauty will pass Easy (Like Sunday Morning) ahh ahh ahh ahh.

\
Bob, let's approach this from a different vein. Which airline has a better contract than the current TA?

I will concede that the TA isn't perfect and I would have liked to see more QOL gains, but it's still a very good offer.

Perfect is the enemy of good.