Pros / Cons
 

After seeing the TA, what do you think the MEC will say in defense of the forced upgrade issue?

Do you think there's a unique benefit in the TA that offsets the concession?

18 MEC members and I would guess 90% of the pilot group don't see this as a concession.

The FACT team training videos provided by the union go a little deeper on what needs to happen in order for a "forced upgrade" to occur. They are saying that after the appropriate QWL improvements are introduced (implementation schedule for this provision is not till Fall '24) that several layers of protections are in place in order to award the CA upgrade to a person senior to the new hire including worst case scenario offering it to people in the new hire class that actually do want the upgrade, thereby removing the notion and the probability that anyone would get junior manned into the position. There's two types of ways people will see this....their way and how they've formulated this in their head negatively believing the sky will fall or the actual way the negotiating committee intended it to be, albeit controversial, and it depends if your glass is half empty or half full. Regionals have been junior manning CAs for years (SkyWest, Mesa etc...) and their pilots don't have the support system provided to CAs here - including the 100 hour OE clause and the fact that they still have to pass training, their line check and the FAA observation.

I highly doubt there will be forced upgrades
new hires will jump all over to get a captain class

don’t be fool about this forced BS

Correct, and this MEC vote solidified that we have a very loud minority of pilots who combined, were No voters from the start just to make a statement (including two of our reps) and/or did not truly understand or want to understand all the language despite clarification from the FACT team over and over again, and who do not see that no matter the leverage, you cannot get a 100% personalized bouquet of flowers hand picked and delivered to your bed with a cosmopolitan breakfast every day - and it just shows that to some people, no matter what positives, they will only focus on the negatives while pouring their suckage on the rest of the pilot group as they will never be happy no matter what you throw at them. Delta had this same issue when they vote on their TA, despite the general consensus that their contract is the gold standard.

As one of those NH pilots coming here with a lot of 121 PIC time a few years back I was awarded an aircraft with a seat lock. This is also that, and one can bid back to something else after about the 2 year mark. But this also comes with an astonishing pay bump, mandatory right seat time for at least 4 months, and 100 hours of OE, meaning you’re going to be darn close to 1 year best case before your training wheels are off. I would have been more than happy, honored and motivated to do well, if this is what I was given off the bat. You also have to have no significant dings during training and any short cycle disqualifies you. I think someone with a relatively similar background would be ready at that point and I would welcome them, and suspect if/when these trigger it also gets the gears turning to get some of our senior WB FOs contemplating the transition themselves. I don’t see this as a bad thing and as others have said, historically this doesn’t remotely happen and upgrade to that most jr spot is usually 5-10 years or more.

It’s not a concession. As explained above, there are a lot of things that have to occur before it’s allowed to be used. There’s absolutely no argument to made about safety, because a 300 hour FO upgrading with a 100 hour IOE is a hell of a lot better than where we currently live with 500 hours of experience and the standard 25 hours of LCP supervision.

Anybody voting no for this thing has lost their damn mind.

If the idea of a 300 hour on property new hire wearing four stripes bothers you, then chances are you’ve been hanging out in the bunk for way too long. Bid upgrade and show us all how it’s done.

Really.

I’m not saying that to be sarcastic or ornery, I genuinely mean it. Career bunkies should do everybody a favor and start sharing their experience with our new pilots.

Just to be clear you don’t have to pass the FAA observation. The FAA can bust you but with retraining you can be passed by a company APD without another FAA ride. Delta has done this!

Close. The FAA "ride" is not pass/fail. It's an observation. The new Captain is either in command of the aircraft or they're not. If they're not, there's some more IOE with an emphasis on that area, then another observation ride. Also, APD's or evaluators have nothing to do with the process. It's either a actual fed, or a QC in the jumpseat.

You can't fail it, because it's not a jeopardy event.

It’s a concession. Right now, everyone can decide when to bid CA. Why would we let the company assign it to someone that doesn’t choose it?

Are people so scared that others will vote no, that you have to pretend this isn’t a concession? Those saying it takes a number of steps first, or that it won’t be implemented til later, or volunteers will reduce the number of forced upgrades, are ignoring the fact that it’s a concession. TUMI pitch men were telling us “we don’t think the company will do that” or “…very often” with the concessions in that POS. Let’s not do that.

The company can currently force an entire class into Guam. Nifty place to visit but that would be a dealbreaker for many new hires. Unfilled NB CA slot, after 350/100 is the firstest of first world problems.

If a new hire is forced into a capt slot that they dont want, all they have to do is a "fail" a training event. Whatever the written test is called, procedures validation, etc. One failure will send him or her back to the right seat.

I agree
it’s a pass
water under the bridge

there will be plenty of volunteers don’t listen to them
and It will attract many from other airlines to come over

don’t even have to fail, can pass and still get short cycled which would make one ineligible.

^^^ this ^^^

Can everybody choose when to bid 777FO? EWR737FO? You get the point I hope.

This is not a concession. Every interviewee will be asked if they're willing to accept a Captain assignment under the UPA terms. I hope they're truthful when they answer.

That’s threading a needle you don’t want to thread imo.

No kidding. Suck it up. Put on you big boy pants and deal with it. When your seat lock is up, bid off.

If the “forced upgrade” existed on the last contact we would not have LAS, MCO and IAH (maybe DEN/ORD) would be half the size today. For many that would be a concession.

In rhat case, when are LAS and MCO going to close?
How many more planes can they put in EWR, LAX, and SFO?

Not that hard.. I have seen many a short cycle in the last year. Most were not close to failing but would def benefit from a little extra tlc by coming back in a couple of months.

Another point: the observation is conducted during the trainees IOE (after a couple rides and 10 hours of time) It’s still a training ride. The observation is to determine if the trainee has internalized the Captain skills which she or he has received during sim training and IOE. If they have the QC signs a form stating the observation was completed - that’s it - no grading, etc. If not another observation is scheduled or it may be time to consider sending the trainee back to TK for some one on one work. I’ve been in both sides as the trainees LCP and as a QC. There is always a meeting of the minds after the observation.

This is correct. You may argue it is not a significant concession, or that it is a concession worth making, but to claim it just isn’t a concession at all is ridiculous.

it’s expensive to close a base. I assume LAS and MCO will stay open.

finding a parking spot for a plane and pilot bases are two entirely different things.

do you really think that IAH, ORD, CLE and probably even DEN are “optimum” size?

I would not be surprised if those bases see years of stagnation / shrinking in the future.

LoL
They want to do 700 flights/day out of DEN - sounds like stagnation to me too 😂

cool...700 times a day: united 123 uhhh, let me think here, uhhh, yeah your gate is occupied, uhhh, what should we do with you? uhhh, why dont you hold on the green line behind gate 47 uhhh, yeah thats a great idea.

Bingo. I don’t know why people believe that because there’s not enough room for the planes to stay overnight in the hubs they necessarily need to have outstation pilot bases. There’s this thing called hotels. MCO & LAS were about appealing to pilots, not parking airplanes.

Largest airport in the world and every day it's like they've never seen an airplane before. Completely baffling.

Largest in the U.S., not the world. And Atlanta pushes more people through than Denver.

I meant physically the largest. They have all sorts of room and they bottleneck planes everywhere even on good days.

I’d argue that it is a concession, along with the 20 or so other concessions. Compared to 280 gets. (NC words, not mine). It’s a beauty, eh. That’s why it passes easily. Good value.

More gets by volume. But it’s value that matters. 100 little wins still loses to 10 huge losses. That’s a personal judgement thing- everyone has to balance their own equation.

If only we knew how you see it 🙄

A few days ago I had an overnight to Jackson Hole. In the morning there were 7 UAL mainline and 1 United express airplane on the ramp, I was pretty surprised to see that at such a small airport.

Lots of vacationers.

Jackson Hole base next?

Geez. You read the post I quoted. Did I really need to put a /s at the end of my post?
Apparently so, since others have piggybacked on your comment.

Let me requote the post I responded to:

Short term anomaly.

a. Reassignment and Overtime Pay
b. Elimination of mandatory FSB LOA 23-01 550
c. Implementation of all forms of reserve lines (VEC, Long-Call Only, SC line, Compressed, et. al.)
d. SC Matrix/SC Cap
e. Rolled Day Off protections
f. Reserve MPG/Days-Off
g. Holiday Pay
h. Unused short calls, late-build short calls
i. FDO Restrictions
j. PBS Timeline and G-line
k. Trip construction and rigs
l. Assignment ladder
m. Reserve to Lineholder
n. Ability to preference minimum time between vacation awards.