IPads? EFB's?
 

So now that the merger is off and running I have heard from several places on the CAL side that Ipad's have been discussed as a means of carrying our flight docs (FOM, Jepps, etc).

I am curious what the UAL side has been hearing from the rumor mill. Obviously before we can go SOC we have to get both sides the same since UAL has ship sets and CAL still has to carry brain bags (good spot for a United Against Outsourcing sticker by the way).

I like the sticker!

I have heard the IPad rumor as well, but I can't substantiate it. Sounds like a no brainer to me. Companies are beginning to find out what a great little device that thing is.

Not dragging a bag around is great, but not without some minor consequences. All in all, I don't miss that thing a bit.

I heard this rumor when the Ipad fist came out. I don't see it happening. All the documents are in the aircraft (shipsets). Why would they spend money on a fancy gadget when they don't have to?

My bet is that when the SOC is finished - CAL jets will have shipsets and you will no longer have to drag that bag around.:D

Just did a PC (checkride) yesterday in Denver and that question came up. In the training center at least, there are absolutely no expectations or even rumors about getting iPads for line pilots.

There is an LCA meeting in ORD today with Abbott (sp?) and that could be a topic for the Newco. It'll be interesting to see if there is reversal of some of the recent staffing shifts at UA.

I recently flew with a guy who did some part time flight manager work. He said United looked at the IPads and it was going to cost around $2 million ish to outfit the group. The snag is that United wants Java on the IPad and Apple wasn't willing to work around that issue.

Fritz

Asking Apple to put JAVA on the iPad, would be like asking Boeing to put the 737-100 flight deck on the 787. :D

You must remember, United uses a computer system called Unimatic. The average years of service of our F/A's flying to Asia is less than the age of Unimatic. That's saying something.

http://www.jumpseatnews.com/uni/i/ap_bw.jpg

Translating Fred Abbott 101: we he says 'explore' that simply means he will ignore what u said. If u ask me the same question again a year from now he will tell you that it's an interesting idea to explore. Fred has few gifts, but shoving his foot in his mouth is a talent he excels at.

Close, expecting United to deploy a current technology for front line employees would be like asking Boeing to put the 737-100 flight deck on the 787.

Or to put a sidestick on the 787.

The ipad isnt FAA/PMA certified either. All EFB's to my knowledge have to go through pretty rigorous testing for use in the cockpit. A major one being the survival of a rapid decompression without the screen grenading (which is made of a very thin piece of glass) and sending particles in to the air. The certified EFB's cost upwards of $3500. I wouldnt hold my breath the 121 world will ever see these on the flight deck Plus I doubt Apple will spend the ridiculous amount of money it would take to alter the ipad and send it through certification. Having worked for the airlines in a previous life I dont think they have the common sense to use EFB's. I know CAL had them installed in the 777's. Thats real usefull - put it in the plane that goes to 6 different airports not the 737's that got to 180....:rolleyes:

Had a line check a few days back and was told that a final decision hadn't been made yet, but it was highly likely we would be getting iPads. Reason? $40-$60 million to reprint all our pubs with the combined language. MUCH cheaper to have one set in the airplane and outfit pilots with the iPad that could auto update in ops.

My LCA also talked about partitioning the HD so that you could use it for personal use also. Thought behind that is guys would take better care of it if they used it themselves.

From UAL ALPA's recent rumor control posting:

>>>>>>>>>>>

Rumor: We might be issued Apple iPads sometime in 2011.

Answer: According to UAL Flight Operations management, the Authorization Request for iPads is complete and Flight Technology is currently vetting the program through Corporate Finance. There is a goal to present the program to the Board of Directors in December for final approval, with pilots receiving them sometime in 2011. The iPads would be a Class 1 EFB provided to all United and Continental pilots.

Dec. 9th is the date Smilton gets to give the final go ahead.

30west

Here is a good rumor. We will be getting our flight bags back and will be able to do our own revisions again.

UAL IS PRESENTLY WORKING The EFB installations on the B777's amd the B747's. It's a 4 part Modification so I'd look for it either Late 2011 or early 2012. the Shipset flight bags are ongoing and reportedly foing nicely, And revisions you want to look at and print can be found online at Skynet under flight operations/dispatch and the fleet type. where every Flight manual is posted Many of UAL's Mods are not easy to see but look under MELA/fleet (320,319,777 etc and you can see many of the flight crew impact mods in progress.

As far as the shipsets doing nicely excatly what are you referring to. It is fine we have them but show me the savings from the 3 years of developing this highly complex system that saves no money. <it seems like most of the time the only people that win with this stuff, shipsets, pbs ect are the pilots that dont fly the line and just sit on their butss on sa special assignment. I think the pbs guy even got a new bid great for a gut that never flies the line.

Dont get me wrong I like not having the flight bag but take a good hard look at how this program came about.

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What actual difference does it make HOW it came about? Because just llke everything Else, Unless they issue the iPad to EACH pilot and make THEM Personally responsible for them? As usual, it will fall on Maintenence
to replace them after they're abused or stolen from one airplane to another after one doesn't work somewhere and a Captain will tell some Controller they can't Possibly open a flight bag and READ the flight manual anymore. Just like we've had refusals for Autobrakes, Autothrottles an Adiru being inop (when there are Three on board. Or an Apu being inop Flying over Mountains west of Denver, as if having the APU is going to help the airplane in GETTING over the Mountains. So No, I don't care essentially about the ipad OR the EFB just the added BS it will bring after it's installed. Heck I'm still wondering How some crew's flew BEFORE we had autoland to hear all the "Caterwauling" I hear when it's inop. JEEZ!
Just seems like another "Bell and Whistle" to me..

Each pilot will be issued one, not sure where the responsibility lies on taking care of it.It will be partioned off so it can be used for personal use also.

30west

Ah, those pesky little refusals eh? I thought that was taken care of in the "lawsuit" when UAL mgt insinuated that if was able to be mel'd, then the crew had to take it.

If it wasn't for UAL crack maintenance slapping those fancy orange stickers all over the cockpit due to lack of parts or time, this airline would never get off the ground. Perplexing isn't it?

Yep, auto throttles, tcas, radar, gpws, apu's, system redundancy, who needs it. If Charles Lindbergh didn't need it, then why do we?

Well those "bells and whistles" usually came about because a bunch of people died not having it.

You guys might think we are pansies when we refuse airplanes for things that we never used to have. But remember that YOU won't be at the other end of the long table if something goes wrong and you have to explain yourself. Example: Let's say you take an airplane without Autobrakes. You ingest a bird right before V1 and end up aborting. Let's say its a little slick and you end up running off the end of the runway and someone gets hurt in the evac. Do you think the Maintenance personnel who I now have to "discuss" my refusals with will be sitting their with their ticket on the table? If you ran off the runway BEFORE we had Autobrakes, you can't be faulted for them not working. If you run off a runway after deciding to take an airplane that had them installed but not working, the FAA WILL ding you for not operating at "the highest level of safety". Sorry, but I'm not going to let peer pressure and comments take me into a situation that I can't defend if something goes wrong.

That being said, I had a FIRST the other night. A mechanic who wouldn't sign off an airplane that was technically legal to defer because of the relationship between multiple failures. That guy earned my deep respect.

Exactly, dosen't the iPad have to be TSO'd before it can be a legal substitute for printed plates, pubs and charts?

Instructor today said Dave Lynn is onboard for the Ipad but it will be a while. What will happen, he said, very soon, is UAL's no logbook. Our latest ASAP letter has CAL flying with open write-ups and Lynn lieks the way UAL does it. He also said look for Jepp ship-sets to be coming soon and then the Ipad sometime later.

It matters to me how things come about when I see the same pilots on sa wasting time and money. The shipsets getting done was just ridiculus, but those same guys will be on sa for the next project.

As far as caterwauling over no a/l sorry in 26 years have never seen this. I am sure you see more of it but most of the time I see an a/c refusal the crew can justify their decision.

I have also seen much better communication at ord anyhow between the mx and pilots discussing problems with a/c.

Quite a post there, where to start in reply??

How 'bout we start with it is NOT YOUR JOB to question a Captain's refusal of an aircraft, for WHATEVER REASON HE DEEMS NECESSARY. It IS your job to provide answers as to when the aircraft in question can be fixed to said Captain's satisfaction. I'm painfully aware that UAL management has sold most of the spare parts inventory, and furloughed many maintenance techs, which requires the line pilots to be the adult supervision around here and fight off the 'just take it as is" mentality, no matter what you, the FODM, or the flight office says.

Aircraft refusals for inop systems are often situation dependent, with many factors playing a part in the decision, including weather, and runway length/condition, among others. What may be acceptable to defer on one flight may be a no-go on the next. The FARs and our own professionalism require us to make those decisions based on maximizing the safety of our flights, regardless of inconvenience or cost.

Actually I agree with the original poster. You want to refuse an airplane because it doesn't have an APU? God forbid you ever had to fly a DC-8, it was even installed!!! Oh my, how would you get to and from without that option.

I would hope that as a Captain you can actually have something other than a blanket policy. Each refusal needs to be based on something other than "I am the Captain". Some of the UA pilots remind me of that Geico commercial with the "Mamby Pamby Land" quote. I for one hope they change the policy and we start seeing some nice punitive actions for those that decide to refuse to BS reasons. Too many times in the past couple of years have I had trips altered or reassigned because an airplane was stolen to placate some Linus and his blanket. I am pretty sure you can probably fly safely between LAS and LAX without an APU on a VFR day, but thanks to the Jackwagon that hung us out to dry without an airplane recently because he was too scared to make such a dangerous trip!

No wonder our union can't make any progress. Our pilot group in consumed with mental midgets. Glenn is gone, move on!

L

Then there is the jackwagon who brings me a plane he has flown for 2 legs with a seat that is stuck in a forward jacked up position and tells me he hopes I have a strong back. AC refused and seat replaced in about 20 min. But feel free to keep carrying the operation on your back, I'm sure jeffy and the boys will enjoy their bonuses.

Doesn't that deferral require it to be usable by the pilot? If it isn't usable then that is a good refusal. It is the blanket statement morons that don't think and just refuse for BS items are the ones I am talking about. Flying without an APU is not an emergency procedure, contrary to popular belief.

It is the same as if you add gas just because your the Captain on each leg. If you don't put any thought into what you are doing then someone else will and they will start taking away your ability to make decisions. Personally from those at CO that I have talked with our refusal policy might be a big change of lifestyle for many UA peelots. Standby for accountability for your actions as a UA Captain in the future.

L

I've found myself disagreeing with just about every post of yours and I disagree with the above.

When I was a Captain (now riding shotgun again), I did have some personal no-go items that were situation dependent. You cite the VFR LAS-LAX APU inop example above: If a fellow Captain decided he didn't want that jet, I certainly wouldn't be calling him a Jackwagon. Would I take it? Depends. If the ground air conditioning unit was working well in LAS and the aircraft temp was comfortable for the passengers and crew, and the APU had not been deferred inop for days on end with numerous opportunities to fix it, I probably would have. But I've been burned by that very situation on a hot, humid day in ORD. The jet was heat soaked because the ground AC works like a swamp cooler in ORD, and CS boarded the pax prior to the FO and me getting there ("Zone said we had to"). So we walk on to the jet and it's just sweltering, pax are puking and ready to revolt before we've even closed 1L. So I suppose you would have taken that jet because it was VFR and a short leg, right? Well, not me. Aircraft refused, and pax deplaned back into the comfort of the terminal. A mechanic was quickly on the scene and had the APU running and cooling down the cabin within 15 minutes. Yeah, we got there late but many of the pax thanked us for what we did.

As I noted in my reply to the OP, the company has laid waste to our maintenance department in the name of cost cutting. Guys like you (unlike you, I won't resort to name calling) are willing to take up the slack and fly airplanes that should have been fixed. Why? Do you get an extra bonus for it? Remember that we have line guarantee, so even if your trip falls apart you are still getting paid. And you advocate punitive action for what you say are BS reasons? Who the he!! are you to judge your fellow Captains? Kolshak?

I sincerely hope I never have to spend time in a cockpit with you.

Most excellent post, sir!

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Well if it's Not MY Job to question then Why do they include Controllers in that stupid conference call to listen to capt EXPLAIN Why a he/she doesn't want to take an airplane? Because contrary to popular belief ?
I personally Don't CARE.. I got stuff to DO! That's just a waste of Time!
My statement was for this Useless "Bell and Whistle" EFB/ipad device.
If a Crew has a QUESTION they can call and ASK about whatever is on their mind in regard to ANY airplane! (Keeping in Mind they do NOT have a say in Maintenence and when it get's done..) Either FLY it or Don't fly it!!
I know that sounds "trite" But I lived through Summer 2000 and My attitude reflects what I learned about Crews, and ALPA during that summer. If a crew refuses an airplane? I fully support their Right to, and I've told captains on MANY occasions that REFUSING the airplane MIGHT be the ONLY impetus for routing to unroute the airplane TO GET it fixed.. But Bogus refusals?? (of the type I previously mentioned)
I couldn't care LESS! But! if the EFB is installed?? Some "Jackwagon" will refuse it if for some reason it doesn't work and they have to resort to the PAPER Flight Manual. Anybody want to Bet against me??

I might actually get something for being brave enough to depart without an APU. We do get a little extra for performance as a company. We may wind up getting profit sharing for the year. Remember those 182 passengers sitting behind the door? Yes, those are the ones that bought tickets and expected to get from A to B.

I am not saying an airplane should never be refused. However we have a large number of pilots that have seem to forget what we are at work for. If it is unsafe don't fly it. If it is inconvenient then suck it up and deal with the issue.

By the way the day in LAS was not a hot day and if any station does a good job of keeping the airplanes cool they do. I visited zone in LAX and they showed me the refusal message they get. It stated " Capt not comfortable flying without APU". Poor baby.

Strfyr51,

I won't take the bet because you would win!

L

Yep, we are now selling passenger safety and comfort on the margins. Too bad your cAPTAIN'S ego won't allow you to hear what your F/O's are saying.

How do you know he did not discuss this with his fo? Have not been to las in a while but when I used to go they were great with air and electric in the past.

Hey, didn't I see you playing a therapist on a TV commercial? Or did you just stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Well, in one sentence you contradict yourself. You say "blanket statement morons" that don't think are the problem, but then you blanket statement that flying without an APU should not be a problem.

Some genius brought me a TED airplane into Reno with no APU a few years back. Temps were over 100. So now I have to make a Bleeds off, unpressurized takeoff with zero air pumping into the cabin of a superheated aluminum tube.

By the time they got the ground air on the airplane, the cabin temps were in the upper 80's... and they never came back down. When they wanted to start the engines, they pulled the jetway air and plugged in the huffer cart. The station manager who was concerned about her possible delay starting the engines came out and pulled the power cord, which sent the IRU's into deep 6 mode. Then she didn't want to plug the air back in because it might further cause a delay. I screamed out the window that they had 30 seconds to get the jetway moving back to the airplane to deplane the people or I was blowing the slides. The temps INDICATED were up in the 90's, probably well over 100 in the cabin. We had reports of people on the verge of passing out in the back. All this could have been avoided by the previous captain (little C) just refusing the airplane. Send it to Minneapolis or something!!

Your attitude of wanting MORE company policing of refusals (and possibly sick leave?) is disturbing in the extreme. Since when has LESS Captains authority been the goal? Sure we have some guys that refuse airplanes for stupid reasons. We also have some guys that intentionally drag their feet. But it seems pretty stupid to me to wish for MORE management involvement in our decision making. It really ****ES me off when I have to explain my safety decisions to someone who is sitting behind a comfy desk 1000 miles away.

The Gunny and I share the same roots and yes, I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.:)

A valid question. L was referring to his bravery and how he could pad his wallet and capitalize on another Captain's refusal. Since when did bravery and $$ apply to CLR? United says they don't shop airplanes. Do we want to get to a point where a Captain's decision could be clouded by the thought of extra money? So how did I know he didn't discuss it with his f/o? I don't. I do know that his train of thought and personal self gratification would not be regarded very highly by a lot of the pilots I fly with.

This comment by L leads to LAS and no APU. I go to work to ensure that passengers get from A to B as safely and comfortably as possible. Taking a plane into an extreme heat environment without an APU is a recipe for disaster. Does anyone remember FLL? Sure everyone can promise that the turn will run smoothly, but after one time of looking up at the cabin temps and seeing 90+ degrees across the board, you will not want to put yourself or your passengers in that position again.

Another nice quote from L. I saw a similar meter where the Captain was belittled for a refusal for a legal deferral. He refused a plane because he was left with one operational system in an international environment. If that system had failed, with no redundancy, things could have gotten ugly very quickly due en route weather.

We as pilots foresee a lot that zone controllers, sam, dispatch, routers cannot. We should not allow their armchair quarterbacking to influence us as well.

I am not here advocating that we should refuse for a reading lights or video monitors. There is no place for bravery, monetary gain/loss, or armchair quarterbacking in our decision making process.

Fll???? you mean the crew that almost taxied in front of a landing dal? Blamed on the inop apu and getting so upset about that fact. Or was the pilot upset about other things going on at the time?

About all the mess that went on at that station just to get off the ground. That's enough in itself. I had a similar situation minus the runway incursion. They promised the world about a plane that was brought to us at an out station. The pc air was fine, they wouldn't pull the air early, etc etc. Wrong. If you want to work in stagnant air heated to 90+ degrees, be my guest. I'm no hero, and I certainly don't want to subject my passengers or crew to that as well.