I want to apologize in advance for the length of this post; I tried to keep my responses brief.

Joe, there should not be any pilot getting more than minimum guarantee while fellow pilots are on furlough. That's what union members are SUPPOSED to do. Shared gains, shared sacrifices.
You know, like the Southwest pilots did when management needed to reduce hours. I talked to many of their pilots and many said it hurt but it was the right thing to do. Now can anyone refresh my memory as to what UALalpo negotiated and >90% of the pilots voted in favor of with respect to monthly hours in C2003? ... it's all so hazy. [/sarc]

Whoa! Citing section 45 of alpo administrative policy manual, merger and fragmentation policy, I disagree. The union has chosen to ignore seniority integration policy.
(45C2)Has a PID even been announced? The very latest date it should be is 3 May 2010. This should have been determined and settled no less than ten months ago.
(45G1) No later than 60 days after agreeing to a PID, seniority integration should have commenced between the two MECs.
(45H1c) If no mutually agreeable seniority integration could be reached within 100 days of the PID, arbitration should have become mandatory. (45H3b) The first meeting of the arbitration board should have taken place no later than 100 days after the PID.
(45H5c) No later than 50 days after the convening of the arbitration board, an Opinion and Award will be issued by the arbitration board.

That's an arbitrated integrated seniority list 100 + 50 = 150 days after the PID.
The two MECs chose to delay seniority integration in order to get a combined contract rather than follow very specific guidelines outlined the alpo administrative policy manual. Management had no input in this decision.
Reference: http://www.wearealpa.org/about/admin...ion_Policy.pdf

Based on UALalpo's behavior over the past decade, do you think that any two time furloughee would believe any alpo rep? I trust management more than I trust alpo. And that's not saying much.

You must not have visited the pilot webboard post-911. Many senior pilots discussed burning the house down.
As far as sacrifices, sure. The bottom of the list was sacrificed by the top and middle of the list to minimize any pain on their part.

I never said 'mostly to blame', although a strong case could be made.
Main cause of your troubles? How about cutting your collective noses off to spite your face when management offered up two TAs that would have improved the C2003 work rules for the pilots?
How about the union members pushing for PBS in C2003 in spite of me and several others jumping up and down on the pilot webboard warning everyone that it was a bad deal for pilots? I even broke it down mathematically.
Seriously, step back and look in the mirror. The number of errors made by the pilots was a wet dream for any management goon.
I won't even address the silly hats on hats off campaign.

Money's not an issue for me. I retired from the AF Reserve last fall with an active duty retirement; I live modestly so it's more than enough for me. Plus my wife is still on active duty.
I also managed a small hedge fund during a portion of my furlough time. I dissolved it after making the partners and myself fairly wealthy. I now actively manage my investments. Today was a good day; I made more than any A320FO on property will earn in the entire month of May if they get 80 credit hours. I also have my bad days but overall I achieve an enviable ROI.

Joe, that was true many years ago. Today there are more than enough federal laws which protect workers' rights. Most unions have forgotten why they were created ... power as a collective with shared gains and shared losses among all union members. UALalpo like so many other unions has become a 'pull up the ladder, I've got mine' organization. Only a few among the senior membership cares about the rest of the members. Yet they expect complete loyalty from the junior members. It is this inequality of treatment that is the reason why unions are dying and it is entire self-inflicted.

Yep...just as infuriating.

I'm sure it did hurt the Southwest pilots. If their Captains went to guarantee they would be making $196,000 per year. Their F/O's on average would be earning at $121,000 per year. Looking at United, Bus Captains would earn $115,000 per year and Bus F/O's $78,000. I know, I know, $78,000 is a Kings salary and they should feel lucky to earn that. There is a difference between hurt and cutting your arm off.

Southwest was hit by the recession and their management had to reduce flying. They however, were destined to reinstate their flying in the near future and the Southwest pilots knew that. United was hit by the recession and they reduced their flying as well. United parked a couple hundred airplanes and outsourced a major portion of their mainline route structure. United pilots do not know when their flying will return. With the introduction of Aer Lingus and more 70 seat RJ's, it may never return.

Regarding the 70 hour line guarantee, how much would it cost United to build every line to 70 hours? Wouldn't they rather have the yearly line average in the 80-82 hour range? This would spread the benefit costs over fewer employees flying the same total block hours.

Going to work for Southwest is the one clear conclusion. Right?

You must be referring to tax incentives corporations and individuals receive from politicians. Tax incentives achieved from the work of lobbyists. Lobbyists who are employed by special interests. Special interests like oil companies who extol the benefits of jobs their industries bring to the table. Not saying it's right, but before you throw your stones about others benefiting from tax dollars make sure you take a look in the mirror first. Who else has those lobbyists? Maybe unions? Getting any health benefits from your company? If you said, "No, I pay for my insurance." well, nice try, but you're still benefiting by getting a cheaper plan from your company which is subsiding a big chunk of what you would be paying (if you disagree with me, opt out of your company plan and go get your own private health insurance). So, why are you driving around in the Prius you bought with my tax dollars? Why should you not have to pay taxes on those health benefits? What about your mortgage interest deduction? Again, getting tax dollars to go on vacations which I'm paying for. Writing off those union dues every year and reducing your tax bill? Enjoy those dollars too while you're at it. Oh, I forgot, tax everyone else, but not me!

Andy, this is from above:

""I never said 'mostly to blame', although a strong case could be made.""

And this from your earlier post:

""Most of United pilots' pain is self-inflicted. But UALALPO sure wins a lot of Pyrrhic Victories""

I don't care to respond to the rest.

[QUOTE=gettinbumped;992538]Andy,

<ALPA Merger Policy changed when USAir dorked up their integration so that now JCBA's are settled before seniority integration takes place. This wasn't some MEC decision they just made up. Thank God.>

Negative Ghost Rider. DAL/NWA did the list up front just like USAir. So it did not change until AFTER DAL/NWA. You are correct that it is new ALPA policy, but it is unproven. We are the ginny pigs, and it ain't looking too good. Fulough protection ends for UAL this year. Not for CAL though. I am of the opinion that you should ALWAYS get the list done ASAP. Unless you like the whipsaw.

Does anyone have some facts on why this took place? I'm curious why the UAL MEC would agree to protections ending, a possible 10% cut in block hours ect, ect while CAL's protections don't end and they get to keep 100% of the block hours.

Seems like a pretty lopsided deal in favor of CAL.

[QUOTE=jsled;992545]The policy may have changed after the DAL/NWA merger, but they got a contract first then did the SLI. Though their management has done about everything different then we are. They had their JCBA before the shareholders appoved the deal, before DOJ approved it, and before the merger transaction closed. I guess they were on a different time line then us.:rolleyes:

I do believe the company will use the CAL side vs the UAL side for leverage and whipsawing. It is going to get interesting this fall.

I have heard that you guys had the protections in your contract. We did not. We had to negotiate a Transition Agreement to get the protections. UAL management did not want to give us a thing. It took 3 months after MAD just to get what we did. Some of those protections expire later this year. It was "the best we could get" according to our MEC.
The provisions can be extended, but I will believe it when I see it.

[QUOTE=David Watts;992620]Only because DAL management offered an acceptable contract. The SLI was done as per the old book. DAL/NWA announced the merger in April. The pilot's merger committees started meeting for the a SLI in July. The arbritration started in August, and the arbitrated ruling was issued in December. Less than 8 months after MAD, they had a list. We just passed 1 year.